General ATR or CTR?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Kris81, Friday 19th Jun, 2015.

  1. Kris81 Valued Contributor ★ ★ ★ ☆ ☆

    Hi guys and girls, just thought I would ask the question , in your opinion which is the better drivers car?

    Accord Type-R or Civic Type-R ?

    I've always liked the accord and nearly bought one a while back, but the Civics are more readily available now.
     
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  2. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

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    I've owned a EP3 and have driven ATRs. I'd say they are both good in their own ways. The Accord feels more aggressive but the CTR feels more planted.

    If I were to get one now I'd go for an ATR, just to own a beast of car that is fast becoming extinct.
     
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  3. Kris81 Valued Contributor ★ ★ ★ ☆ ☆

    @SpeedyGee so you think the ATR is a more raw driving experience? , does it have the old skool VTEC as my CL9 is my first honda and ofcourse has i-VTEC.
    Is there much difference between the two systems?
     
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  4. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

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    There's a massive difference mate.

    @DeviateDefiant care to share your thoughts?
     
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  5. DeviateDefiant Co-Founder Staff Team

    United Kingdom Leo Northants
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    The short version goes something like, the CH1 handles better has a better VTEC kick, the EP3 is faster in a straight line and benefits well from a 6th gear - in the real world, it's often neck and neck on track.

    The ATR is a full-blown driver's car, mine battered and bruised, with numerous worn suspension components in dire need of replacement makes my CL9 look silly on the handling front - it's insanely well planted, the traditional VTEC system is addictive as always, proper little torque serge at 5700rpm you just can't get enough of - and it can be kept in VTEC throughout the gears shifting just before the redline. The H22A7 is a fantastic engine, with basic I/H/E flow mods you can get a comfortable 230-240hp, though tuning involves doing a ODB1 conversion with a P28 ECU, harness and 2-wire IACV and relocation. Nothing overly involved and it's been done many times before. It's just a fantastic balance of performance and comfort.

    The thing with the ATR is they are not the most reliable Hondas out there, they suffer with severe rust issues worse than almost any other model, 5th gear synchro always goes on the Pre-Facelift, and also less often on the Facelift, cam-end gasket seal often goes, as does the VTEC solenoid seal, the auto-tensioner design on the H22 (also affects the Prelude) isn't the best and needs replacement at some point in later life, front upper ball joints and O2 sensors are common replacements - but that's not something to hold against it. There's other minor things 6th Gens end up with like door handles needing repair (fair few threads on it here). In general, it's an older engine design, still using a distributor and all the rest - but the engines are solid as you'd expect from a Honda - if you see anything on that side, it's normally the bottom-end going from poor maintenance.

    The CTR is a more reliable car overall in my opinion, the i-VTEC system (utilising VTC like your CL9) means you lose that little torque surge for the most part, but power delivery throughout the band is a lot more uniform, the EPS makes them so easy to throw around, but definitely lacks the weighted feel with feedback that many people prefer. With their power to weight, they're fast off the line, and as with the ATR, stock for stock they'll leave a CL9 in the dust. They're agile, responsive and the best analogy is they're like a go-kart, compared to the ATR feels more raw and rugged - though the ATR definitely has the better ride stock for stock too. On the mod front, with I/H/E hitting 220-235hp is common, tuning is often done through Hondata's K100, though there's other solutions out there too, no more involved processes really like the ATR or CL9.

    Common issues with the EP3 are the 3rd gear synchromesh (potential gear box issues on either side I'm afraid), door lock actuators, front compliance bushes wear fast, cat heatshield rattle (like the CL9), windscreen seals aren't the best at times and you can hear whistling at motorway speeds. I can't think of anymore, they are a more reliable car with less common problems - the thing you've got to bear in mind is both cars are very hard to find well maintained without previous owner abuse. Just reading back, the K20A2 is again a really reliable engine, though you hear again of bottom-end problems, and also timing chain issues (as @SpeedyGee has fixed a couple of times) down to poor maintenance.

    I want to own a EP3 for a while one day, I don't like the interiors, and I'm not normally a hatchback guy, but it's an experience I want to endure for a while at some point.
     
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  6. Kris81 Valued Contributor ★ ★ ★ ☆ ☆

    Awesome reply as always.
    I think I'd like to own an ATR as a second car one day, don't think I could use one as a daily.
     
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  7. Kris81 Valued Contributor ★ ★ ★ ☆ ☆

    Just been looking on autotrader, in their tech spec bit it says 0-60 9 seconds for an ATR? Surely that's not right?
    CL9 is 7.9secs
     
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  8. exec Premium Member Club Supporter

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    IMO the ATR is superior to the CTR, heres a few different points:

    - Handling - the ATR is considered as one of the best handling FWD cars, the car has double wishbones at every corner, the CTR is only at the rear with McPhersons at the front, from a technical pov its inferior. Accord also has LSD so tons of grip, UKDM EP3 doesn't. The Accord chassis is a better base too, great chassis, even on the non Type-R version they are fantastic to drive, I love mine to bits and its never failed to put a smile on my face when pushing it, I've driven a fair amount of cars now, some back to back with my Accord just to see if there is something else out there newer (that isnt an Accord) that I might like and it always comes back negative!
    - Steering - Personally speaking I really really do not like EPS, they have no feel and feel very detached to us, like your just swiveling a weightless thing around and they seem to have some odd dead zones where it does nothing. I love having that connection between steering and the road and feeling the road and what is happening. The steering in the ATR is supposed to be quick and direct.
    - Quality - the Civic feels vastly inferior to the Accord, the Accord is just a much more nicer built car, nice materials and the design is nicer. The EP3 has a lovely gearstick position though, I do like that.
    Saloon > Hatch - IMO saloons are just much more nicer, the shape, and they feel more planted with the boot at the back. The ATR is also a proper 5 seater and practical car, the CTR is a 4 seater.

    Both these cars are old now so will have age related issues as well as lots of poorly maintained ones, good ATR's are hard to come by, and the EP3 prices dropped so much every Barry has one and is ragging them to death, so lots of right melons out there.
    - - - Updated - - -
    It's official time for pre-facelift is 7.2sec, but they are actually faster than that i think they are around 6.5 and under (?), Honda always put conservative 0-60 times, even the new CTR is a few . second faster than official time.
     
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  9. DeviateDefiant Co-Founder Staff Team

    United Kingdom Leo Northants
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    They always vary in real life, but on paper, the ATR is 6.7 seconds and the EP3 is 6.4 seconds. CL9 I know as 7.6 seconds.
     
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  10. Pottermus Valued Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    Personally I'd buy an Integra. I have an Accord as I've got two kids.

    I would never own a Civic Type'R as I value my gentlemans reputation.
     
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  11. Nighthawk Guest

    United Kingdom Richard Milton Keynes
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    :whathesaid:

    If I had the money, an Integra for sure
     
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  12. Sims77 Senior Member ★ ★ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Mark Sims Stoke on Trent
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    Depending on your budget the DC5 is the best value for money and faster, better handling then an EP3 & ATR.

    If you've got lots more money and a few screws loose, then you'll need an FD2.
     
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  13. DeviateDefiant Co-Founder Staff Team

    United Kingdom Leo Northants
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    The UKDM EP3 is actually very marginally faster on a 0-60 than the DC5, the JDM EP3 is quite a bit faster.
     
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  14. Sims77 Senior Member ★ ★ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Mark Sims Stoke on Trent
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    :vtec:
    I think you're looking at the DC2 not 5

    The DC5 is 220bhp and has the same engine as the JDM EP3.
    I know from experience it's faster than a UK EP3
     
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  15. DeviateDefiant Co-Founder Staff Team

    United Kingdom Leo Northants
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    No mate, I know what a DC5 is :Laughing: The official 0-60 is 6.8 seconds, that's slower than the ATR and EP3 - but in the real world there's little difference. The EP3 is generally faster on the 0-60 and the DC5 starts pulling away there after, I've seen it time and time again. It'll vary on one example to the next, as every engine is different - but I've seen this a few times now. The DC5 is lighter than the UKDM EP3, and has more power on paper, same gear ratios and all sorts - but the EP3 is just faster off the line.

    It's not the same engine, only in the sense that your FD2 has the same engine as they're all marked K20A, Honda Japan don't differentiate with a trailing number like Europe and America do. The DC5 and EP3 are both K20A PRC blocks, but different cams, pistons, ECU etc. - the CL7 is K20A RBC and your FD2 is K20A RRC.

    There's quite a few shootouts and what not you can watch on YouTube.
     
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  16. Sims77 Senior Member ★ ★ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Mark Sims Stoke on Trent
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    That's fair enough but I've had a play with all the Type-R's when I had my DC5 (except the Euro R) and they couldn't touch my DC5.
    Although they weren't a standing start.

    I have found this info though :-

    DC5 - 0-60 6.0secs 0-100 14.89secs
    EP3 - 0-60 6.57secs 0-100 16.85secs

    EP3 BHP/Ton = 166.25Bhp
    DC5 BHP/Ton = 185.99Bhp

    The 0-60 time of 6.8 for the DC5 is wrong IMO
     
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  17. Nighthawk Guest

    United Kingdom Richard Milton Keynes
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    I always take 0-60 times with a pinch of salt when they are so close like that. Unless you have a huge power advantage over the other car, it will always come down to driver skill and how well they know their car, who knows the optimum time to change gears, the speed to do it, etc.

    I've out-accelerated cars which on paper are much quicker than me but the driver just thinks slamming their foot down and ramming through the gears will make them faster....

    Id have the DC5 if I had the choice
     
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  18. DeviateDefiant Co-Founder Staff Team

    United Kingdom Leo Northants
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    There's difference between every car, @SpeedyGee will tell you just how much one EP3 and vary to the next. My '03 CL9 was noticeably faster than my '07 too stock for stock, for whatever reason.

    The thing with the stats is they'll vary quite a bit from one source to the next.

    Another source I found:

    I again disagree with the above, the UKDM EP3 is 1204KG (without A/C) and the JDM EP3 also had a lighter weight version (lighter than the DC5).

    The thing is, we all know the FD2 is the fastest out that bunch, and the UKDM EP3 the slowest overall. The DC5 is best on paper, the FN2 is the slowest on paper. The upcoming FK2 is the first to truly separate itself from the rest in terms of power.
     
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  19. Sims77 Senior Member ★ ★ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Mark Sims Stoke on Trent
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    I do agree on the FD2 though :Grin:

    When it comes down to it, I also agree they're all very close and it is down to the driver.
    I think the FK R will be king
     
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  20. DeviateDefiant Co-Founder Staff Team

    United Kingdom Leo Northants
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    I've been tossing up an FK2 for a long-time, I might be able to get one as a company car, but it's still quite the monthly commitment. I've always said I'm someone to buy once a car's had its steep deprecation, but then there's going to be nothing like owning a car from new, knowing it's history from day one and all the rest. @Ichiban will only buy new for this reason, and I do see why.
     
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