Bulletins & Advisories CR-V 2013 AWD Firmware upgrade to manually engage AWD by pressing VSA OFF

Discussion in '4th Generation (2013-2017)' started by PanayiotisPal, Thursday 26th Feb, 2015.

  1. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

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    To make my point regarding a better solution regarding the Honda AWD capability is the following concept which also RAV4 and Nissan X-trail uses and can be applied by HONDA by a firmware upgrade. This will make our life easier and will promote sales for Honda team.

    Solution:
    A AWD firmware upgrade
    This will enable the driver to manually engage the AWD by pressing the VSA off button which will simultaneously lock the multiplate hydraulic cluch
    This will enable a 50/50 torque distribution when the VSA button is off but above 30mph to automatically disengage the VSA/lock mode.

    This is necessary as will help drivers to get out of stuck situations, when the AWD fails to rotate the rear wheels due to their limited design torque capacity.

    If Honda can do this, it will gain additional market share and will make the current customers happy.

    Literature:
    Some vehicles let the driver to lock the multiplate hydraulic clutch manually when the driver feels that he needs all wheel drive engaged permanently, for example to drive off road. For example, in Nissan X-Trail, this is accomplished by pressing a button on the dashboard console. In Subaru Legacy, the clutch is locked when the automatic transmission gear shift lever is at the position "1".

    A known problem with multiplate hydraulic clutches that are used in automatic all wheel drive systems is traction device overheating. For example, this can occur with some compact SUVs when they are driven off-road, through a thick layer of snow, etc. ECU detects overheating, disengages the clutch, and puts the vehicle into 2WD mode. A warning light is displayed on the instrument panel.

    I don't know the Honda Design Team nor I know anyone affiliated with their AWD software developement. However if anyone of you has the ability to ask from them a firmare upgrade please please ask of this one. I will be over the moon if this development can me materialised and offered as an upgrade to CR-V 4th generation AWD owners.
     
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  2. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

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    Forgot to add, that by having this AWD firmare update it will also pass the scandinavian inclined test (teknikensvarld.se) when the front wheels have zero friction (on rollers). The CR-V 4th Generation failed this test. This will definetly promote sales and will have a better competitive edge, but also the AWD system will be more complete as a system as it will remove its shortcomings and will be on par with better AWD systems offered by some other manufacturers.
     
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  3. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

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    I'm not sure if it's that simple, otherwise Honda would have done it, I would think.
     
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  4. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

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    Thanks for your reply. It is a good question.
    I wish and hope that it is possible to lock the multiplate clutch through a firmare update and the VSA off button. If a kit is also needed then they should produce it. If other manufacturers have done it I don't understand why Honda cannot. Honda leads the development and this should not be a problem to them. I hope they recognise this necessity of locking the front/rear wheels through a 50/50 torque split and offer this upgrade soon.

    It is a big disadvantage to produce a AWD vehicle which does not deliver the AWD experience when needed the most especially when failing tests or when the rear wheels need to kick in but fail due to system overheating. You can understand how the customers feel when they buy an AWD car which fails the AWD tests or when they get stuck in sand, having an AWD rear wheel failure.
     
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  5. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

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  6. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

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    Any news regarding the ability of CR-V AWD to lock torque distribution to a 50:50 ratio (front:rear) by the VSA OFF switch? Does anyone know if there an upcoming AWD software/firmware upgrade in order to allow the driver to manually lock the AWD torque distribution when the VSA switch is selected to OFF?

    I sincerely hope that HONDA CR-V addresses the AWD shortcomings by manually allowing the CR-V owner to manually lock the rear wheel torque distribution in harsh situations. I still hope and wish that the HONDA CR-V DEVELOPMENT TEAM can read this post. THANKS and sorry for persisting on this.
     
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  7. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

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    Unfortunately for CR-V AWD owners I got a negative reply from Honda Customer Service.
    "Unfortunately, Honda engineers are very busy on current projects, and evaluation of the submissions which are made from outside Honda would severely curtail progress. Furthermore, experience has regrettably shown that few submissions from outside Honda are either new to Honda or are sufficiently commercially interesting to justify diverting valuable resources to them. "

    That is to say that Honda Engineers do not have time to spend for development of current CR-V AWD shortcomings, in order to improve the AWD system when VSA off is selected, in order to provide a locking front rear torque distribution by a percentage (say 70% front 30% rear).
     
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  8. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

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    Well you would have sour grapes if you were told the 5th Generation CR-V is no longer made in Swindon. CR-V who ..? Sorry to be blunt but the Accord owners faced that and now all Jazz and CR-V owners face the " Not our monkey" brush.
     
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  9. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

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    Hello,
    thanks for the reply. Can you please elaborate on the accord and Jazz. I do not follow you. Do accord and Jazz have similar problems and support does not have time to correct their mistakes?
     
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  10. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

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    It was meant in jest bud, When this current CR-V comes to end of life (EOL) Honda UK and Honda Europe will develop it's not a problem anymore attitude but you will never be told that ,you will given the merry go around which they already have started with your experience.

    Having said that HUK knows CR-V production is moving to Canada they are already viewing CR-V owners as undesirables as they did with Accord owners, their plans to distance themselves from the product. If you had a Civic well they would be jumping out of the woodwork to help you as the Civic's future is secure with Swindon.

    So if your Honda car is not longer made in Swindon you will be given the cold shoulder , HUK HUM HE all will deny this but its does and will happen.
     
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  11. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

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    Thank you for elaborating further. I now understand the reasons for Honda Service response, which as a customer I find their answer as irresponsible and against customer care/satisfaction.
     
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  12. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

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    That is the new face of Honda currently in Europe, It will go full circle when its too late.
     
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  13. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

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    I hope that they reconsider their strategy in UK and of CR-V as a quality based SUV (AWD) in EUROPE and EUROPEAN BASED PRODUCTION.
     
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  14. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

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    This is just the beginning unfortunately with poor profit forecasts this will happen Honda predicts minimal profit growth - BBC News
     
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  15. John Dickson Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    Can this feeling among the Honda UK Customer base that we are increasingly being viewed as second rate due to having had the audacity to not buy a Swindon product not be raised with those who actually matter in Honda world wide - Japan?

    Swindon's, HUK's HUM's HE's role should be to just sit there and the only question they ask is "How high?" when Japan shouts "Jump!"

    HUK HUM HE. A classic case of the tail wagging the dog.

    Now the pro-brigade will say things about how the Japanese manufacturers' UK bases all have better productivity than Japan.

    I could not care less about productivity when I buy a car. Productivity is just a measure of how many units they can throw out of the door in the shortest time possible in the true style of piece work in good old British Leyland. Productivity is the modern dress for the blight of old Nationalised industry - piece work. It doesn't matter if it falls to bits 20 min down the road; it's how many you can throw together that is the only measure that counts.

    I only care for product quality when I buy a car. Probably the reason I want Japan built cars.

    Quality not quantity.
    - - - Updated - - -
    @Ichiban I just read the article you linked above and it then lead me on to this, which I think is incorrect, claiming the first car built at Swindon was the Civic.

    Honda invests £200m in Swindon car production plant - BBC News

    The 5th Generation Accord was the first car built at Swindon wasn't it? Production starting in late 1992.

    I thought UK Civic production started with the 6th Generation in 1994.

    A case of badly informed journalism? Speaking of which Auto Express recently ran an article on the Civic coupe concept, describing it as the 5th Generation Civic! :facepalm:

    Are these people for real?
     
    Last edited: Wednesday 29th Apr, 2015
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  16. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

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    I have a Swindon AWD CR-V 2.0 EX and I am very happy with its build quality. The only problem I had/but still have was partially fixed by a firmare update, but I guess the problem still remains since Honda team did not offer a remedy to the locking differentials problem. If the front wheels say loose more than 50% torque the rear wheels are not able to take this additional toque and they fail to engage. I am not sure regarding the exact percentage. However if they managed to lock their differential (multiplate clutch) manually, by a firmware tweak, when the VSA button is selected to OFF, then this problem would be fixed. When above 40-50km the VSA off button can disengage to on. Some other manufacturers have the AWD lock mode applied when in first gear. I guess this is another way to think about it. I prefer the VSA off button if I had the option because I have the automatic CR-V.

    The HONDA CR-V is an excellent family car, with huge cargo space, low noise and excellent drive but their AWD is very basic. This is the reason that the CR-V has lost market share. The tests on AWD were disapointing due to the lack of locking the multiplate clutch. If this was fixed, with a AWD firmware tweak, by selecting the VSA off button, then HONDA would pass the inclined tests (snow and roller tests), would demontrate this in youtube, and in AWD/CAR magazines, would show that they care about their customers, and would gain market share. I hope that they reconsider. This is my wish.
     
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  17. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

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    After a lot of research I have my solution. The new CR-V AWD system is equivalent to the new RAV4 AWD which has, in addition, a manual lock AWD button. This was implemented by adding a solenoid to the multiplate clutch therefore locking the AWD at the computer's command.

    Having said this, for Honda to add a manual lock of their AWD system when the VSA button is selected to OFF, even with a firmware update the locking of their multiplate clutch (front rear differential lock mode) is not possible, unless they also add a solenoid to their multiplate clutch (I guess plus wiring).

    So this involves both firmware and hardware upgrade and honda I guess is not prepared to undertake such an investment to fix the AWD problems.

    For me this is a mandatory upgrade. I don't know what the cost would be but I am prepared to pay for this upgrade if honda gives me this option. The 2015 facelift should have it as standard. It is just a solenoid and wiring plus a newer firmware to give a on off command to the multiplate clutch to lock its differential.
     
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  18. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

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    I think I was mistaken. The multiplate clutch of the CR-V which controls the Active AWD system does have the required solenoid. This solenoid controls the percentage of torque delivered to the rear wheels by varying the electric amperage to the electro-magnetic solenoid in the electric control coupling. So the lock mode is possible by just a firmware update. Sorry regarding my mistake.
     
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  19. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

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    ... Continue
    So if the AWD firmware is tweaked so that when the VSA button is switched OFF, and up to 50KM/hr, the Active AWD system will send a fixed percentage of torque to the rear wheels say 50% front and 50% rear wheels, which is the same as fixing the electric amperage value, send to the electro-magnetic solenoid in the electric control coupling which will be customised in a new AWD firmware, then we will have same effects in the Honda CR-V as in RAV4. Thus a manual locked AWD.

    If my assumption is correct who can develop this tweak firmware apart from HONDA who don't have the time to tweak the firmware ???


    I bet that if this is done HONDA will pass the tests, increase customer satisfaction, be the first AWD car in sales in 2015, verify this in test reviews, and surpass the competition.

    Please HONDA produce this update. Can You as Honda affiliates ask this firmware update from HONDA Swindon??? I am sure you can have some influence on firmware updates, as you have direct contact with Honda production. THANKS.
     
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  20. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

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    We aren't Honda affiliates @PanayiotisPal we have no influence over Honda UK whatsoever :no:

    (if only was did :Innocent:)