Electrical & Lights CR-V AWD solenoid wire

Discussion in '4th Generation (2013-2017)' started by PanayiotisPal, Saturday 16th May, 2015.

  1. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Cyprus Panos Paliometocho
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    According to some threats, the voltage on the solenoid, which controls the AWD system, is always on by default when AWD is not operating. If someone has the wiring diagram of the solenoid which controls the AWD system then as a part of my project I can connect a wire from the spliced solenoid wire on the VSA on/off switch, when it is off it will cut the voltage send to the solenoid so it will turn the AWD to on (50% 50% torque distribution if that is the max) and when the VSA is selected to on the AWD active system will come back to the normal AWD mode. So a splice of the wire which controls the AWD solenoid is needed in order to connect it to the VSA on/off button in order to engage a AWD lock mode.

    Any help regarding the AWD wiring diagram , and specifically the solenoid AWD wiring diagram (colour and number) which controls the rear wheel toque distribution and the VSA on off wiring (colour and number) will be a the answer to the AWD lock mode. Probably the VSA on/off switch is electronic and I have to add an external on/off switch in order to control the AWD lock mode.

    IF anyone has the AWD Wiring information please attach them to this threat. Thanks
     
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  2. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Cyprus Panos Paliometocho
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    thread sorry regarding the spelling.
     
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  3. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

    England Speedy Birmingham
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  4. Beefy Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    Your going to break it. Leave well alone
     
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  5. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Cyprus Panos Paliometocho
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    If you guide me I will visit an electrician/engineer and follow your directions :Smile: Beefy is this a difficult task for Honda and Honda Engineers to produce and install the AWD lock mode capability on existing 4th Generation AWD CR-Vs?
     
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  6. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

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    I think you are over simplifying the situation @PanayiotisPal if it were as simple as you are making out I'm sure Honda would have done it.
     
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  7. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Cyprus Panos Paliometocho
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    thanks for the reply. All other AWD car manufacturers (Kia Sportage, Hyundai Santa Fe, X-Trail, Rav4 etc) have a AWD lock mode, so I guess it is not difficult for Honda to do it. In addition Honda Pilot AWD in USA comes with a manual lock mode. So the technology is there.

    I would think that a firmware update (which will turn the AWD to locked when pressed but will automatically disable the AWD to automatic when it exceeds 40km/hr) and a modification is needed in the VSA switch to make this possible (which will also connect to the AWD solenoid wire to turn it to automatic AWD or to manual locked AWD).

    I don't think it is difficult. Honda has gone sour with the lack of manual lockable AWD. If my friends ask me about the AWD I will tell them to look elsewere due to the absence of AWD lock mode . So I am willing to test the AWD lock mode on my CR-V, but I will only use it for extreme low speed situations, but the safety will not be built on the AWD firmware since If I forget it on I will risk of destroying the AWD system.

    I prefer Honda to do it but Honda is not responding.

    Thanks.
     
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  8. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Cyprus Panos Paliometocho
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    SpeedyGee I will reverse the question. It maybe so simple that is why Honda does not do it, or did not think about it. Complex high tech companies think with complex minds. You buy a TV and you can have 4-5 firmware during its life to update. A car that is more complicated should be serviced/updated atleast for 5 years. Why Honda does not do it is beyong my comprehension.
     
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  9. Beefy Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    Honda has it reasons for what it does. since introducing the duel pump differential setup the idea has always been that 4 wheel drive activates as the front wheels slip. the CR-V has never been an out and out 4x4 and has never been marketed as such. the need for diff lock, whether partial or full hasn't been part of its appeal. however with AWD this has been improved upon and now provides drive in a multitude of situations without needing the front wheels to slip. the AWD system has its own ECU and communicates with the VSA system via a CAN network. the diff pump motor is controlled by the AWD ECU and earthed within the ECU also. if you were to give it a feed or earth from another switch the ECU will at best realise there is a fault and disable the AWD and put the AWD light on. worst case is you blow up the motor as it is a modulated voltage and back feed the ECU and fry that too. good luck in modifying the CAN BUS signal, that is beyond the best of us. lets say you manage to somehow get the pump motor running via another means. how are you monitoring the differential fluid temperature and pressure sensors? will you be modifying the motion adaptive EPS to adapt to fully engaged 4x4 drive? how do you plan to ensure you have the correct proportion of drive? 50/50 ? the oil pressure solenoid valve is used to maintain the correct oil pressure inside the diff. how do you plan on modifying this to match and maintain the pressure required for lockable AWD?

    basically this is not a simple circuit! the only way to alter the fundamentals of the AWD is to do it via a software update. and there may not be the functionality within the AWD ECU to include such an update. there is no one simple add a switch feed here to get around it. In order for a 50/50 split of power the AWD ECU takes inputs like real time acceleration from the engine ECU, steering input from the steering angle sensor, incline from the VSA/yaw sensor and feedback from the sensors within the rear diff assy.

    just be happy that you car has got the ability to switch between whatever split of power is required in real time and needs no pressing of buttons. if its more power that you want then look elsewhere. if its a more dedicated 4x4 that you want then look elsewhere. I caunt comment on the off road capability but ime sure its more than reasonable with a good set of mixed use or full off road tyres. if not in your opinion then look elsewhere.
     
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  10. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Cyprus Panos Paliometocho
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    Beefy, thank you for your professional opinion.

    What I understood from your comprehensive reply, is that the only way to lock manually the AWD system is only if Honda produces this complex firmware maybe when VSA is selected to off the AWD will be manually engaged but disengaged automatically if the vehicle speed exceeds 40k/hr. I wish this is possible and honda can and will produce this as an additional functionality in order to gain additional market share.

    So there is no modification that I can do. My only hope is the Honda Firmware update team but I guess it is a bit complex since they have to rewrite the AWD firmware to include the manually selectable AWD lock mode.

    I wish that Honda reads the threads and produces a firmware update to include a manually AWD lock mode. It is also for their best interest to do this if they want to increase sales and keep customers happy, as this mode will be a step to satisfying customer demand and satisfy AWD enthousiasts who need to take control of AWD at low speeds.

    I hope that a good samaritan from Honda can read this thread and produces a firmare update to include the manual locked AWD system engaged when VSA off is selected. The VSA can also be engaged to on when speeding above 40km/hr where the AWD manual lock mode will be automatically turned to off.

    So I leave this wish to Honda Team in order to reconsider the AWD lock mode possibility.
     
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  11. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Cyprus Panos Paliometocho
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    I found a very nice link which shows how the Honda AWD for CR-V works. Now I understand the AWD a bit better.

    Honda Worldwide | Technology Picture Book | Real Time AWD
    Select: how and when the rear tyres are Powered.
    Then Select: Real Time AWD ICS

    The AWD ECU when it it senses that the front wheels may slip activates the electronic motor which drives a pump to generate oil pressure within the Sealed Oil Pressure control system. The one way valve automatically closes. Once sufficient oil pressure is activated the electonic motor stops until needed again. The oil pressure engages a clutch to provide power to the rear tyres. The engine provides power to all tyres. Engine power to the rear tyres is stoped as soon it is no longer required.

    I guess a AWD lock mode firmware is technically possible in order to engage the electronic motor which drives the AWD. Honda just wanted to save weight in this system and not provide additional functionality. That is why they did not include a lock mode. I still think that if Honda wants to gain additional market share and increase sales from AWD enthusiasts and to correct their AWD system disadvantage, and mach all other AWD competition in terms of AWD lock mode, then this is a good firmware update to produce. Honda provides one of the best value family SUV if not the best, but not the best AWD system due to this shortcoming. This destroys the Honda name in terms of providing a good quality AWD system.

    If I was a Honda Head office technician I would have asked this development to materialize. As a customer I did and this is the second time I asked this from Honda. The competition accuses Honda for not providing a lock mode AWD to their CR-Vs, and this is where Honda looses market share. All AWD enthusiast need the AWD lock mode and this is where Honda has failed to identify as a need to their system, in comparison to the AWD competition.
     
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  12. Eureka Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Paul Lancaster
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    I have to ask this. When I was looking to get a 4x4/AWD/SUV to replace my last car a lot of people including some "in the know" sited the CR-V as poor off road and also used the lack of ability to lock into AWD/4x4 as one of the reasons.
    I had the list of cars I was looking at narrowed down to a few. Some of which had the ability to lock into 4x4 below 18mph. Did that affect what I bought? No as the other mechanical side to Honda far out weigh some of the competition I was looking at.

    In the real world my 2nd Generation CR-V with its dual pump AWD and asc works well. As a out and out comparison between my car and some of the competition I was considering we did a direct comparison. We all tried the cars in the same wet, muddy (but not overly muddy) field where we met. All the cars were fitted with road type m&s tyres and did the lack of ability to lock into 4x4 make any difference to my car? Nope. None of us got stuck but the CR-V was impressive in the way it did its thing with no intervention. Just the way Honda intended.
    A few of the others who were in kia's, jeeps and xtrails had a bit of a laugh at the CR-V (and my other mate who turned up in his dads rav4) as they all said we have the tractor on standby for when you get stuck. Needless to say we had the last laugh.
     
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  13. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Cyprus Panos Paliometocho
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    The question for me is. Why not a firmware update to include a AWD lock mode in order to allow CR-V to compete in same terms and features with other AWD competitors? Is it loosing market share and sales from this? Are the CR-V AWD customers happy with this issue? Will they recommend this vehicle to other buyers? Will they tell this disadvantage to other buyers??? No good AWD marketing mouth to mouth, no good AWD score, just a great SUV. Still why get the CR-V with AWD or even why don't you choose a better off road AWD system that includes a lock mode??? What is the score of AWD in different magazines, how does it perform off road, snow mud or sand, or even on road on snow? You can read the reviews and watch youtube.

    The AWD lock mode is useful on light off road situations at low speeds. This is what Honda has to compete with. This feature was not made available to the AWD CR-V and the ability to software/firmware lock the AWD system torque distribution per wheel (or per axle) at low speeds which is absent. Can Honda provide a solution???? this is the question. If they can why don't they ??

    Whey I was stuck in sand and the rear wheels failed to engage I did become a laughing story. Needs definetely a AWD firmware lock mode at low speeds and this is my wish.
     
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  14. Eureka Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Paul Lancaster
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    Surely the lack of drive to your rear wheels when you were stuck in sand is another issue completely. I have seen videos online that show a lack of drive to the rear wheels on some CR-V that were supposed to be fixed with a firmware update & Honda are aware of the issue.

    Using my car as a example the front wheels slip a very small amount before the rear wheels seem to get drive. I know the AWD on my car is totally mechanical with electronic intervention from the vsc via throttle modulation & brakes. I also know the dual pump system was modified for quicker activation on the later 2nd Generation CR-V so that maybe why my car performs better than people expect (myself included) but I see no reason as to why a manual switch to lock into AWD is needed if the system is operating as is should.

    Do I think its effecting customers? No sorry most drivers are happy to leave the car to the job in hand and let the mechanical/electronic control deal with where the drive is sent and when AWD is activated.

    When I was looking at the Nissan xtrail (early models I must add) before I bought my CR-V that has a switch for lock, auto and 2WD. Do the owners I have spoken to online and the car dealers know what the setting mean and do. No not many I can say with certainty. A lot presume that the lock position actually locks the diffs plus reading the owners manual it stated that non dependant on the position of the AWD mode switch the software could activate AWD even if set to 2WD. Sort of defeats the object of the switch plus finding out that the Nissan AWD setup stops working altogether above a fairly low set speed (certainly on the early xtrails I was looking at) made a lot of the xtrail better off road system than CR-V threads on the internet more urban myth than fact.
     
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  15. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Cyprus Panos Paliometocho
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    Not myth. It is a fact that the AWD lock mode is absent as a feature in the AWD CR-Vs. All AWD SUVs except Hondas CR-V have a AWD lock mode, even similar systems like the Xtrail Rav4 and the Kia Sportage. This is a fact. As I said this feature only helps the AWD enthusiast to have control of AWD engagement at low speeds before a slip occurs and will behave like a 4WD at low gear situations (up to its torque capacity). Try driving up a steep hill with CR-V without this lock mode. You will understand thist issue regarding the simulation of 4WD driver better. In CR-V the front tyres will slip the rear tyres will engage and the system will fail to drive up the hill. I am trying to find the youtube.
    With lock mode all 4 wheels work in harmony.

     
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  16. Eureka Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Paul Lancaster
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    Sorry I think you missed the point of my post.
    The myth I refer to is the supposed lack of performance from the CR-V as soon as it goes off a paved road.
    Its only the later rav4 that have a lock mode on the AWD. The earlier ones there were no driver controls for the drive system.
    As for the AWD enthusiast being able to control the CR-V AWD I for one don't believe that's Hondas target audience and that a fully automatic AWD system is what the majority of CR-V owners and drivers want.
    As far as Honda is concerned when I went to the main dealer to try the CR-V for the first time they made a big selling point of it all being done automatically with no driver intervention needed unlike the confusing options on their competition.

    If you are wanting a out and out off roader performance I don't think the CR-V is the car that's aimed at you.


    As for you getting stuck in sand there are a lot of variables but if the rear wheels didn't activate at all surely that is a fault/issue that needs resolving by the dealer/Honda rather than trying to say if you could lock AWD with a switch you wouldn't have got stuck I would rather ask why did the AWD not activate the rear wheels.

    edit:- the video you added is no surprise as I knew that one was coming along with the other marketing hype done by Subaru usa. I know my CR-V would have climbed that hill as it did a similar thing the other day when we were all out. A lot of the cars would have climbed the hill had it not been for Subaru trying to make their cars look superior.
     
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  17. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Cyprus Panos Paliometocho
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    In this vid the Ford Edge at least would have managed to drive up the hill if it was a different unbiased without any interest driver toward Subaru. This is Gen 3 Honda, but I am just giving this vid as an example of what is a steep hill and how the AWD lock mode would have helped and nothing else. there are more case senarios/examples in sand and snow where this lock mode could help and the automatic AWD system would not give the same good result, all at low speeds low gear situations. Same would apply on snow hill ascending at low speeds where the front wheels will slip and this initial small slip before the rear wheels engage and will turn to a bigger slip as the 4WD momentum will be lost.
     
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  18. Eureka Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Paul Lancaster
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    I understand your point but still think that if the system is working as intended surely the switch is not really needed as the system should deal with all circumstances.
     
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  19. PanayiotisPal Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Cyprus Panos Paliometocho
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    Not true. It is needed in order to satisfy all customers including me for light off road (sand snow and mud) situations. This feature should have been provided in order to satisfy more buyers. This is the point I am making. This absence of lock mode does not satisfy all customers. What is the point of offering a AWD system which satisfies half the potential customers???? 50% sales less.You still have your automatic AWD system and I still have the AWD lock mode option when I need to at low speeds off road situations. This AWD lock mode need was not identified by Honda in order to increase sales and market share. You said this car is not intended for you. I said why not adding this feature in order to include me and many others. Wrong marketing decision. Both AWD customer types are satisfied with this type of AWD. I think I made my point. It does not deal with all AWD circumstances and this is the disadvantage of AWD systems. That is why all SUV AWD manufacturers (except Honda) are offering this AWD lock mode.
     
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  20. Eureka Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Paul Lancaster
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    Sorry we are going to have to agree to disagree as I still stand by if the system is working why should the driver need to intervene.

    In this day and age where electronics control the majority of the cars components and you trust the electronics when it comes to ABS and other safety features surly if the AWD system is doing its job as it should then the AWD should be operating at its optimum performance. If its not surely that is a issued that need resolving.

    The other day when I took my CR-V out with some friends I fully expected to get stuck as I wasn't sure how the CR-V was going to perform especially since it has road based mud & snow tyres fitted.
    It surprised me and others as it performed faultlessly and ok it was only light off roading down forest tracks and slightly muddy fields but it did its job perfectly. The asc was tried both on and off to see what difference it made.
    Did I think even once that I would like manual control over the AWD and needed a AWD lock/4x4 lock button? Nope sorry.
     
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