Engine & Gearbox Engine change & no spark/fuel

Discussion in '2nd Generation (2001-2008)' started by RobDunk76, Monday 11th Jan, 2016.

  1. RobDunk76 Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Hi There, I just discovered this forum after trawling the 'net looking for advice. Hopefully, fingers crossed, somebody here can help me.

    Over the Christmas break I did an engine change on a Jazz that the previous owner let run out of oil.....

    I had a spare bare engine onto which I swapped everything from the original engine. This includes every single pipe, wire, fuel injector and sensor except the cam sensor. I reinstalled this engine and long story short it does crank over on the starter motor, but I have no spark on any of the plugs and I'm pretty sure I have no fuel from the injectors either.

    A scan tool has been connected, there are no error codes at all!! It can see the engine turning ~200rpm when starter is cranked. I have a few questions, Does the CKP or CMP sense RPM? I do have the original CMP to try. Also I'm told there are 2x types of crank sensors, I need to get this confirmed somehow.

    I've took a bit of a break from it since Xmas, the thing just about broke me :Frown: but I do need to get the engine running...

    Please ask me any questions you need answered to give me advice.

    Many thanks in advance.

    Rob.
     
  2. legend-ary Moderator Staff Team

    United Kingdom Legend The Big Smoke
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    Hello and welcome to HK Rob.
    Which MY Jazz are we talking here? Since you have swapped the motor in yourself I am sure you will find my question a bit of an obvious one but as there is no spark the first thing that springs to mine is Immobilizer.
    Have you taken care of the immobilizer circuit? are you using all the immobilizer components from the new engine? GD (2002-2008) has steering column mounted key reader, the immobilizer behind the front facia and the ECU mounted under the glovebox.
     
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  3. RobDunk76 Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Hi legend-ary. It is a 2003 Jazz. I have not changed or disturbed any immobiliser electronics that you mention. I believe the green key icon on the instrument panel is doing the right thing. I think this problem is simple and obvious to a fresh pair of eyes and a less frazzled brain. Lol.
     
  4. legend-ary Moderator Staff Team

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    so the flashing green symbol disappears after a couple of blinks when you insert the key.
     
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  5. RobDunk76 Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Yes. After approx 2 seconds green light goes out. I will triple check this tomorrow though.
    - - - Updated - - -
    Just a pic of the Titanic struggle I had

    20151231_114048.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Tuesday 12th Jan, 2016
  6. legend-ary Moderator Staff Team

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    oh wow... you took it out of the bottom?!
    a quick search points to a few different things:

    a. Grounds for coils by the side of head connected?
    b. CPS which I believe translates to crankshaft position sensor is different between CVT and Manual Jazz are different even though Honda says they are the same.
     
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  7. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

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    Hi Rob,

    I would do the following :-

    1. Check all the earths
    2. Check all the sensor plugs are "seated" corrected
    3. Check for a 12v positive on the injectors when ignition is on
    4. Connect up OBD reader and see if there are any code pending or present
    5. Connect up an OBD reader and watch the various readings as you crank the engine, see if anything looks "wrong"
    6. Take out the all the spark plugs, examine them and see if they are telling you anything.
    7. Leave the spark plugs out for a good half hour at least, clean them and then put them back, try again (lets any petrol in chambers evaporate).
    8. Make sure battery has plenty of charge for cranking at full speed.

    Are the sensors on the replacement engine the ones that it came with or did you swap some over, if you swapped some over, what were they ?
     
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  8. RobDunk76 Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Thanks for the responses so far guys. It's lifting my spirits a bit :Thumbup:. To answer questions so far:

    @Legend
    Yes I took it out the bottom. There is not enough room to lift it up without taking the gearbox off and exhaust manifold. The assembly is just too large to lift thru the Jazz's short? engine bay.
    Ground for coils, I think this is the L/H side (as sitting in drivers' seat) of the cylinder head. Yes all present and correct.
    Crankshaft sensor came accross to good engine along with all other parts including injectors (they were different design). I also moved accross the camchain cover because cover from good engine was damaged (from a salvage car).


    @SpeedyGee
    1. Is there a good diagram anywhere showing physical locations of these G101,G201 etc? I do have a manual on disc but it's not really showing physical locations.
    2. Yes. all clicked in.
    3. Not checked yet. Will do so ASAP
    4. No codes !! :Sorry:
    5. Specifically what do you want me to watch for?
    6. Plugs are dry.


    Thanks so far!!
     
  9. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

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    Sorry a bit short of time at the moment, so I'm going to cheat and divert you to a video

    This guy has a good method for diagnosing a Cranking No Start


    Watch that video and related ones, it should give you plenty of hints on how and what to check.
     
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  10. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

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    Any luck with getting the Jazz started @RobDunk76
     
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  11. RobDunk76 Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    No buddy not yet. I am gathering info and will attack it Saturday
     
  12. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

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    Cool, was just curious :Thumbup:
     
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  13. RobDunk76 Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Ok so I had a look at it today. Re-did a few tests just to double check things. The immobiliser is working exactly the same as my dd Jazz. No probs there. Deffinately no spark or fuel. I can see RPM on scantool during cranking. If I disconnect ckp sensor I cannot see cranking RPM any more. I disconnected cmp sensor and could still see cranking rpms. This time I used my scantool that I am much more familiar with. I am constantly receiving this error after every ECM clear and restart "P0335". And very occasionally I get "P0339". Both refer to ckp crank position sensor or circuitry...

    I have printed out P0335 troubleshooting and will work through that when there's not ICE on the ground

    Any more help and advice greatly received.
    Thanks fellas.
     

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  14. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

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    Try swapping the crank sensors over between the two engines you have, no/bad crank sensor signal will result in no fuel or spark.

    Other thing to check would be to take the timing cover and and sure timing is correct on engine.
    - - - Updated - - -
    BTW I'm not on the forum all that these days, so tag me with @SpeedyGee if you need to ask me anything.
     
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  15. RobDunk76 Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    @SpeedyGee unfortunately I have only one crank sensor. I started building up a bare engine using all my parts from siezed engine.
     

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  16. RobDunk76 Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    OK having another crack at it today. I have now fitted it's original CMP sensor and the result is the same so I started to do some CKP diagnostic work. I feel a little bit silly though as I'm stuck trying to find ECM/PCM connector A (31p)...

    The manual shows a 31pin connector with 3 rows of pins. When I look at my ECM it has 4 rows of pins!! confused.com is me.
     
  17. RobDunk76 Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    My ECU is different to what is shown in the manual. I have a spare salvage Jazz and this vehicle is identical to the manual.
     

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  18. RobDunk76 Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    @legend-ary @SpeedyGee

    This thing is confusing the hell out of me now. Today I've had ANOTHER crack at it. Using the DTC Troubleshooting: P0335 WITH ETCS diagnostics all the voltages it asks me to check at the CKP plug are present and correct. Today I tried swapping over the CKP sensor from my DD 05 CVT Jazz and vice versa. The sensors only work for their designated car. One curious thing I noticed though is when cranking and observing the RPM signal somehow it looses it after 3 seconds or so? then shortly after that the check engine lamp illuminates. if i keep cranking 0rpm is shown. I have to switch ignition off and on to 'reset' things to get the CKP RPM to register again. Anyone got any new ideas to try?? Please? LOL :Grin:
     
  19. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

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    I think that means that the ECU is shutting down the engine. If the crank position and cam position signals don't tally up it will do this to save the engine.

    If you get a multimeter on the positive side of one of the injectors, you should find that this signal drops to 0V at the same time as you lose the RPM signal. If so then this confirm that the above is happening.

    Was this replacement engine a known working one ?
     
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  20. hedleyf Senior Member ★ ★ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Hi, l,m not a Honda technician so not sure of the system used but in general most crank sensors are similar so here goes, I,m thinking the sensor is on the front pulley.? If you swapped over the cover did you notice the gear wheel or plate with teeth on it? Was it located correctly as some use the sensor for both RPM and tdc the difference being the teeth position usually a tooth is missing to indicate tdc. So it's important it's located right, also the sensor is normally a induced AC sensor this means it induces voltage as the teeth pass over it ,so it is important to have a gap between teeth and sensor the gap is critical as the voltage changes depending on the distance,some cars are preset As You bolt the sensor in others you have to measure with a feeler blade to start n run the engine you need a gag of about point 7 MM. This is the same even if the sensor is located on the flywheel . You can check the voltage by plugging the two sensor wires. Using a analog volt meter and cranking should see zero to point 5 if my memory's correct voltage will move up and down like a waveform, I suppose finding a analog meter might be a challenge.think you are on the right lines as this sensor controls both spark and fuel.
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    Just thought how else you can measure,if you can see the top of the teeth measure from the top of a tooth to the mounting surface,measure the end of the sensor to its mounting surface ,deduct the sensor measurement from the tooth measurement to give your clearance.
     
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