Engine & Gearbox Gulf Competition 5W-40 oil - suitable for 2.4 CL9?

Discussion in '7th Generation (2003-2008) [Acura TSX]' started by tUMi, Saturday 17th Jan, 2015.

  1. tUMi Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Tuomas Finland
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    I did some research and found out that Gulf is also one of the oil manufacturers who has ester based fully synthetic oils in their product range, just like Fuchs and Motul does.

    Here's a link to Opie Oils: Gulf Competition 5w-40 racing engine oil | motor oil

    And here's a PDF to Gulf Competition oil specs: http://www.gulfoil.ie/assets/Uploads/AttachedFiles/Testing/Gulf-Competition.pdf

    For comparison, I found some specs for Motul 300V and Fuchs Titan Race Pro S 5W-40: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-JlDXSKQcHEA/USdQ5ny0owI/AAAAAAAAA5c/eDT1HB4Z9-Q/s434/Motul%20vs%20Fuchs.JPG

    (Fuchs has HTHS 4,07, BTW)

    Has anyone here tried Gulf Competition oils in their Hondas (not just Accords)? I'm just wondering should I replace Fuchs Titan Race Pro S 5W-40 that I'm currently using with this oil. It's a bit cheaper than Fuchs so I'd save a bit money but is it worth it? My CL9 consumes the Fuchs Titan Race Pro S (5W-40) about 1 litre within 6000 miles, that's way lower oil consumption that I had with the Mobil 1 AFE 0W-20. I wonder how Gulf Competition would work in my car when looking at oil consumption. I'm also considering moving to Gulf Competition 0W-30 as it's better for cold starts in our cold winters in Finland than their 5W-40 variant when looking at the specs. The valve lash check was recently made to my car and the mechanic said there were only very little adjustments that had to be made so all should be perfect in that matter (it was most likely the very first time the valve lash check was made to this car).

    I've heard some good things about Gulf Competition but also found some weird things. For their 5W-40 oil they say "Recommended for small capacity modern engines (up to 2 litres) and for larger engines for short duration races". Why only up to 2 litres? And also they're mentioning for all their Competition products that they don't recommend them for use in road cars. Well, Fuchs is good for road and track use, I think that Gulf should serve in road cars just as good. At least Opie Oils mentioned somewhere in some forum (don't remember on which forum) that Gulf Competition is good for road use as well.

    Well, let's hear your opinions about this. :Smile:

    EDIT: Found this thread about Gulf Competition 0W-30: Gulf Competition 0w30 | Passenger Car Motor Oil (PCMO) - Gasoline Cars/Pickups/Vans/SUVs | Bob Is The Oil Guy

    Looks very interesting. HTHS is assumed to be 3.5 which is a good value for 0W-30 as far as I know. Also the shear resistance score for this oil is excellent. Seems like a very good oil but I'll keep doing more research.

    EDIT2: The text below is quoted from the last post in the thread I linked above:
     
    Last edited: Saturday 17th Jan, 2015
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  2. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

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    Hi @tUMi before looking at what oil to use I would deal with why your engine has a appetite for oil? :SOS:I used to use Pro S 5w-40 in my CM2 for 7 years and had 87000 miles and it never ever eat any oil at all.

    Your car is consuming far more than than average oil burner.. you want to get that investigate first before you do anything personally.
     
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  3. tUMi Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Tuomas Finland
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    Yes, I've noticed my engine consumes more oil than most of the cars introduced here. I've looked into Finnish Honda enthusiast forums and by reading that, several people with Hondas has a similar oil consumption with me, some have even larger.

    Personally I think it's my oil consuming driving style, especially at summer time. On winter time it seems that I hardly consume any oil at all, still within time and miles gathering I can see the oil level dropping a bit, yes, but It's perfectly normal behaviour, in my opinion. I can assure you I have no oil leaks on my engine at all, it's completely dry everywhere in the engine bay area, even undernearth it so the oil is definitely just burning off. I've owned a few cars previously which had engines that were quite oily from everywhere, my Honda is nothing like it, it's as dry as it can be.

    On winter (which is long here) I hardly get into the high rev area where VTEC activates, on winter my driving style is very calm and 90% of the time I'm mostly using just low and mid revs when driving. On summer, it's completely different story as you can imagine. :Smile: At least in Finnish Honda enthusiast forum people have mentioned that using the VTEC area often it affects the oil consumption greatly.

    At least @DeviateDefiant here has reported that he added oil to his engine at some point of his interval, back then he was using Mobil 1 0W-20 AFE. However, I have no information how much he had to add oil total during his interval. I'm surprised that your CM2 doesn't burn any oil at all but on the other hand I haven't seen your driving and maybe you have had luck with your engines. :Smile: But you shouldn't expect that every Honda engine is similar to yours, it's not. Every engine is an individual when it leaves from the factory, there can be even large differences in oil consumption between the engines. That applies to Honda too as well as the other car makers. I have no idea which oil my car's previous owners used, the service history doesn't mention it. I found a couple of stickers stating Mobil 1 0W-40. Haven't tried it once in this car personally.

    So far my least consuming engine oil I have tried is Castrol Edge FST 5W-30, I didn't needed to add that much during the interval. I think it was less than 0,5 litres within 6000 miles. But I quit using that oil after two oil changes, on cold weather (minus temperature) I could hear some valve noise when sitting inside the car when the engine wasn't totally warmed yet (when the engine was idling). The noise disappeared soon after driving a kilometer or two but for that reason I stopped using that oil. Other oils I've tried after Castrol Edge FST 5W-30 hasn't done that, actually with the Castrol oil the engine was never nearly as quiet as it were when using Mobil 1 0W-20 AFE and Fuchs Titan Race Pro S 5W-40.

    My engine seems to be in good order overall, fuel consumption is surprisingly low and power and torque wise everything feels as it should be. If it just burns some oil, I can live with that. Not my first car that I need to add oil during intervals.

    Ichiban, can you think of any other reasons why my oil consumption is this high when compared to others here? Bear in mind that I have no other symptoms (if you can call it that), everything else is totally normal.
     
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  4. i-DSI Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    I'd say 1 liter on 6000 miles ain't that high oil consumption 'in general'. But for a Honda it is at the high side.
    Apart from that: I'd never ever use out of spec oils in my engine! Competition oil is extremely good oil, but doesn't last as long in time. Those oils are meant to be changed 'every race' if you know what I mean.
     
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  5. tUMi Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Tuomas Finland
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    You're right about what you said about oil consumption. It is at the high side, true, but not really bothering to me.

    Gulf Competition DOES meet Honda's specs (ACEA/API, unofficially though). But if it doesn't even last 6000 miles without losing it's lubricating capabilities, then it's pretty much useless to me, I have no plans to change my oil sooner than 6000 miles. But you're right, of course, even the name says it, "competition". However, Fuchs Titan Race Pro S is also considered as "race oil", but I find it good for road use, many people recommend it even at here Honda Karma. At least it looks perfectly normal in the engine when nearly 6000 miles has been driven with it.

    So unless I get facts from Gulf Competition that it's safe to use for 6000 miles, I guess I have only two options at the moment - either stay with Fuchs (which is propably not a bad idea) or try Mobil 1 New Life 0W-40 next.

    At least I know for sure that Mobil 0W-40 oil it has been used in my car previously when the oil was changed at authorized Honda service before my ownership (the oil was changed at 12000 mile interval before my ownership). New Life is a good oil from Mobil (I have used it in the past on my previous cars) and it would save me a lot of money as Fuchs is rare, expensive and pretty hard to find in Finland. I could order it from UK of course but I would need to order it in larger quantities to get the better price than I get from Finland, if I order just one 5 litre bottle from UK it will be more expensive than buying from here. And everytime I want to buy Fuchs oil, I need to order it seperately when at the same time Mobil New Life is easily available from everywhere in my hometown and it's much, much cheaper.

    I will change my oil next week and will use Fuchs Titan Race Pro S 5W-40 along with the genuine Honda OEM oil filter. What do you people think, should I just stick with Fuchs as my car works really good with it (even it burns in my engine but I think my engine burns every oil I will put in it) or is it wiser to move to Mobil 1 New Life 0W-40? I have emailed Opie Oils and made an inquiry of Gulf Competition to find out is it worth using for road car and safe to use for 6000 miles. If they ever answer me back, I will let you guys know what they have told me.
     
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  6. i-DSI Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    The basic answer to your question if you can use this Gulf oil in the Accord is given by Gulf themselves:
    Use in Passenger Vehicles:
    While these oils are excellent for motorsport use, they are not recommended for use in road cars, especially if the car or its engine is still under the original manufacturers’ warranty.

    It is nowhere mentioned this oil meets ACEA specs needed for Accord. It just says they use additives that are used in oil that does meet the specs.

    Concerning oil to use: I would even go (back) to 0W20 as it will lubricate the engine better. Things might mechanically even get worser with thicker oil in the long run.
    But the flip side: with 0W20 you might need 2 litres every 6000 miles.
    I do use 0W20 (Honda genuine oil) in Accord, previous Civic and current wife's Civic: no consumption at all.
     
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  7. tUMi Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Tuomas Finland
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    Yes, I've read that answer already.

    Well, if you put it like that, it is a out of spec oil. Generally speaking, it's propably not a good idea to use oils meant for racing in road cars. I think I'll pass Gulf Competition then as I don't want to have a gamble with my engine. Now when you mentioned that, I wonder does even Fuchs meets ACEA specs needed for Accord, I think it's the same thing with that oil than with Gulf Competition.

    Anyway, thanks for all your input @i-DSI much appreciated. :Smile:

    Mobil 0W-20 AFE is a good oil indeed but I don't think it's the best option for me and for my car. First of all, it's insanely expensive here (almost as expensive as Fuchs) and still rare and hard to find. As far as I know, only one shop sells it off-the-shelve and it's about two hour journey to get there from here where I live in. And secondly, the oil consumption with that oil in my engine is too high for my liking. It does lubricate well indeed as it's so thin and gives good fuel economy but I wonder about it's engine protection and wear protection capabilities. After all, it's a oil designed for relatively new cars mainly to improve fuel economy and lower the emissions, not for ultimate engine protection.

    Actually, I found something interesting. A test which has tested different engine oils and their wear protection. Here: SECTION 1 – MOTOR OIL “WEAR PROTECTION” RANKING LIST | 540RAT - Tech Facts, NOT Myths

    Looking at the ranking, Mobil 5W-30 has a incredible wear protection so it looks like a very good option for Fuchs, especially when looking at the price. My father uses the Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 in his diesel Accord ('13) and he has a very minimal oil consumption. I realise it's propably not the ESP version which was on that test but the American version. But I think ESP is a great oil regardless. Actually, ESP could be even better than the Mobil 5W-30 in that test. In ESP the HTHS value is higher than in American 5W-30 variant (ESP 3.58 and the other one 3.1). Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-30 has even lower HTHS (3.0) so I definitely think that the 0W-20 is not a right option for me as I want more engine protection than economy.

    Although a good thing to remember is that in cold starts 0W oils offer better protection than 5W oils where the most engine wear occurs. But I prefer 5W for it's smaller oil consumption so it's all about which features do you want from oil. It's all about making compromises.

    Although a good thing to remember is that in cold starts 0W oils offer better protection than 5W oils. But I prefer 5W for it's smaller oil consumption so it's all about which features do you want from oil. It's all about making compromises.
    I think it is even more interesting option than Mobil 1 New Life 0W-40. And because Mobil ESP is thinner than Fuchs Titan that I'm using right now, it will be even better for cold winter weather. I already had a small oil consumption with Castrol EDGE FST 5W-30 so chances are that I might get a lower oil consumption with Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 than with Fuchs. I might be wrong but It's definitely worth a shot, ESP will easily take 6000 mile interval (the guys driving VAG cars drives three times that amount with the same oil!) and certainly gives a good wear protection and good lubricating features in cold winter which is important for me (looking at specs it's way better than Fuchs in that regard). Price difference between Mobil ESP and Fuchs is so huge that I can easily buy 9 litres of ESP with the price of single 5 litre bottle of Fuchs Titan.

    Besides, Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 is very common here and has a very good availability everywhere. Unlike Fuchs, I don't need to order it from somewhere so things will definitely get easier for me. I can just go and buy it whenever I want which I prefer more than ordering. I can buy a 4 litre bottle for 39,90 euros (about £30) and 1 litre bottle for 15,90 euros (about £12) here in Finland which is not bad price at all for quality oil.

    Does anyone here have experiences using Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 in their Hondas? If you have, I would definitely like to hear the positives and the negatives. Can anyone think any reason why I should rather stick with Fuchs than moving to Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30? Does someone really think that using it will screw up my engine? :Smile: After all, it easily covers the ACEA/API specs needed for my Accord.
     
    Last edited: Sunday 18th Jan, 2015
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  8. i-DSI Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    Hmmm.... you father uses the WRONG oil in his Accord 2013 I-DTEC diesel !! Please stick to the recommendations and use ONLY 0W30 in the I-DTEC engine.
    No experience with 5W30 myself.
     
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  9. AccordCU2 Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    I can't offer you clever answer here with specs etc because i don't know nothing about it.
    I had my 2.4 for over three years now and changed oil at 5000 miles regularly (Fuchs Titan race Pro S 5W-40) with no problems what so ever.I never noticed major oil consumption,had to top up a bit now and then but nothing much.
    I am not convinced yet by this 0W-20 malarkey and quite happily will stick with my Fuchs 5W -40.

    I might be wrong and 0W-20 is THE BEST oil for my car but i still have quite few Fuchs left in my shed to be used first.
    No experience with 5W-30 either.

    My understanding is petrol cars can use anything from 0W-20 to 5w-40 so can't see why you couldn`t use 5W-30 in right specs.
     
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  10. tUMi Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Tuomas Finland
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    Okay, this is a bit off-topic now. :Smile:

    Actually, it was the I-CTDI engine where the 0W-30 is the only recommended oil, it reads even in my car's manual. For my father's I-DTEC 5W-30 is perfectly fine and is within Honda specs. I've read the manual of my father's car and it does recommend both 0W-30 and 5W-30. Perhaps for you guys in UK have different recommendations than we do. :Smile:

    Even the oil selector on Mobil's web site gives Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 as the recommended oil for my father's car. And the mechanic in Honda service who made the service to my father's car mentioned that the ESP is the only oil they are allowed to put in I-DTEC engines. My father's car has been serviced now two times in our local Honda service (my father bought the car as new and has owned it for about 1,5 years now). Seems to me that all Honda services in Finland uses the 5W-30 for I-DTEC engines.

    I think you'll do a good decision by sticking with Fuchs Titan Pro S 5W-40. I would have no problem to do the same, if the price of the oil wouldn't be so outrageous and availability wouldn't be so poor. I change my oil every 6000 miles and it feels like I'm wasting money for nothing if I can get equally good oil for my use for much cheaper price and good availability AND if I'm lucky, the oil consumption may go even lower than it is now (as it is a bit on the high side now). But I'll have to try it first to see that.

    Anyway, this engine doesn't seem too picky about the oil we put in there. At least in my case I have tried various types of quality oil and they all work more or less. Even though when using Castrol EDGE FST 5W-30 oil I had bit more valve noise coming from the cold engine while the engine has been very quiet with Mobil AFE 0W-20 and Fuchs Titan Race Pro S 5W-40. But however, Castrol was the least consumed oil this far on my engine.

    If it was a diesel engine, I would be a lot more careful and use only what the manufacturer recommends.

    You're right, @Zoran we can pretty much use whatever viscosity oil we wish in petrol engines as long as we stay in specs Honda has given us (which are pretty easy to fulfill, to be honest).
     
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  11. DeviateDefiant Co-Founder Staff Team

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    There's an awful lot here to read, but to respond to your comments about my Mobil 0w-20 consumption, it wasn't drastic at all. I'm sure I put the exact amounts I topped up with in my thread.

    Personally, I would use Honda 0w-20 or Mobil AFE 0w-30 as an alternative if the price is too high for you to source. There's absolutely no need to go as heavy as 5w-40 on a stock K-Series engine in my opinion, however I will be going heavier on my K24 soon as she's becoming quite heavily modified.

    @Zoran - do one fill on 0w-20 and I'm sure you'll be convinced, it took some doing for me too!
     
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  12. AccordCU2 Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    Like i said i might be wrong but i will do one fill and then see how i feel about it.
     
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  13. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    Do it mate there is nothing to lose you seen the research document I have posted in the Evangelist section?.. It's best thing since slice bread its just getting over the fact thin oils don't cause more friction or wear.
     
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  14. tUMi Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Tuomas Finland
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    I remember your oil consumption with the Mobil 0W-20 wasn't very noticeable, perfectly normal I'd say. :Smile:

    I've made up my mind about my next engine oil and I'm definitely not going back to 0W-20 or similar viscosity. I'm impressed how good Fuchs 5W-40 has worked out in my engine power wise and economy wise. In my opinion, now after driving almost a full OCI with Fuchs I don't feel 0W-20 oil any superior at all so I see no reason to start using it again on my engine. I was expecting getting worse results with fuel economy and engine response with Fuchs 5W-40 but I was wrong. The fuel economy is still excellent with Fuchs and the engine response is just as good if not better than Mobil 1 AFE 0W-20. Plus the oil consumption significantly dropped so I'm very satisfied I did the change to heavier oil. Like I've said before, not all engines are the same. :Smile:

    But the reality is that Fuchs costs too much for it's benefits and it's not exactly easy to source as only few places sells it (can't find this oil even from Germany, strange!). With the current pricing I just can't justify myself to keep using it for as long as I own this car. As this is my daily driver car and it will never see any track driving or heavy performance modifications, there's no necessity for an ester based engine oil. Luckily there are very good alternatives out there that are of course cheaper and still gets the job done very well so I can have a peace of mind and can sleep at nights. :Smile: My oil gets changed so often anyway as I gather lot of miles on the road (I have at least two oil changes per year) and we all surely agree that changing oil frequently is more important factor than the oil itself, as this engine is not very picky about it. Just don't use cheap crap from unknown manufacturers and don't use oils that are out of spec.

    I already know which oil I'm going for next. I had a look for sellers on German eBay site who ships to Finland. Luckily I found one, a very good seller with very competitive and tempting prices. The selection of oils and low prices (at least they're low compared to prices in Finland!) is so impressive that I will most likely buy all my engine oils from this seller in the future. :Smile: I already placed my first order from there.

    So here is the oil I will put to my Honda in my next OCI (after using my Fuchs 5W-40 which I have bought earlier). I will let you know then how's it working out in my engine once I have gathered some mileage with it.

    $_57.JPG


    You can find the specs from here:

    So far from the oil brands I've used in my engine Castrol is the one that have had the smallest oil consumption. I've also heard others saying that Castrol Edge has a reputation not burning so fast in Honda engines. It's always a gamble of course and changing oil brand might not do a difference. But sometimes it does and I'm willing to find that out. It's a good oil for sure in our driving conditions, if you want to use the 5W-40 viscosity. Propably one of the best choices from 5W-40 viscosity range in the market right now as Castrol is known as a quality oil brand.
     
    Last edited: Sunday 18th Jan, 2015
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  15. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

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    @tUMi Your post was so exhaustive I will just say I ring the neck of my car and that on a daily basis , well I did that from day one when I got the car when it had 2 miles. The engine has never consumed any oil at no matter what I have driven the car.

    There is a proven evidence if you running in was done slowly then your piston rings will never seal correctly and if you bed them in driving its hard (not flat out) for the first 500 miles then they will seal superbly.

    0w-20 oil is far far superior to thicker oil its proven.. believe it or not that a different matter,
     
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  16. tUMi Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Tuomas Finland
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    @Ichiban I believe you do, no doubt about it. :Smile:

    I also believe what you say about breaking in the engine. Maybe in the case of my car it was done incorrectly. I haven't owned this car since new so there's nothing I can do about it though. Don't you think it's kind of senseless to replace piston rings just because of this kind of (moderate) oil consumption? I'm sure you didn't even tried to suggest that to me though. :Smile:
     
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  17. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    No mate you can't replace your rings now and expect the rings to seat correctly the bore and pistons will have wear and that seal can't be replicated. You will just have to live with it its the most curial time of your engine.

    When I got my brand new bike.. I warmed up the bike for 20 minutes at the dealer until the radiator fan came on then for the next 200 miles I did high rev pulls in 5th and 6th gear with varying speeds. Then some 3/4 throttle open short runs on the motorway on the first day. On the 3rd day drained the oil to fully synthetic oil for another 100 miles with the same technique and then full throttle runs for another 100 miles followed with another oil change.

    Now this bike is quicker than similar bikes other rider are amazed too and they too don't agree what I did was correct.. LOL yet again it does not consume any oil. Last year on the IOM I was flat out on the mountain section for hours must have done 8 or 9 sections and it was spot on that proves it works. well its been working for me since I came to aware of this technique.
     
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  18. tUMi Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Tuomas Finland
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    This is exactly the answer I was expecting from you. :Smile: Thanks for all your input @Ichiban you've been very helpfuI, much appreciated. :Smile:

    It's not a deal breaker for me, I can easily live with this. After all, adding engine oil is one of the easiest maintenance procedures you can do to your car and the lifespan of my engine might not be any shorter than yours, even you don't have oil consumption at all in your engine. :Smile: And like I've already mentioned, the oil consumption in my case is certainly not too excessive especially with the heavier oil which is a compromise I will happily make as the engine seems to be okay with it in all aspects. Many people in Finland use heavier oils like I do in their Hondas and still have some oil consumption and they're happy with their cars and the engines lasts a lot of mileage. For VAG owners this is a lot more serious issue, those cars are prone for oil burning from day one and might never change better even after breaking in period, the individual differences between same engines are huge there.

    Well, it will be certainly interesting to see that will there be any change in oil consumption and other engine behaviour when I will eventually run out of Fuchs oil and replace it with Castrol Edge Titanium FST 5W-40. It meets and even exceeds all Honda specs and will no doubt it is a very high quality oil with a very reasonable price. I payed only 55,59 euros (about £42,32) for it, that price includes shipping costs to Finland too. For Fuchs I had to pay 95,00 euros delivered (about £72,45). Funnily enough, I can't find Castrol Edge Titanium FST 5W-40 anywhere from Finland. Although what I did found on sale in Finland is Castrol Edge Titanium FST Turbo Diesel 5W-40 oil which also meets Honda specs but not entirely sure if it's the same oil that I bought from Germany, just in the different package.

    The oil consumption I had with Castrol Edge FST (non-Titanium) 5W-30 was already promising as it was way lower than with other oils I've tryed. If I get even a bit lower oil consumption with this Castrol oil I have just bought compared to Fuchs and at the same time the engine will work fine with this Castrol oil, I'm a very happy man. But only time will tell that, I will let you know then how it turned out.

    In a meantime, if anyone has any experiences with the Castrol Edge Titanium FST engine oils, I would very much like to hear your input.
     
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  19. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

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    I would get a leak down test and compression test on your car bud to see if there is a underlying fault, I have not seen valve guides yet go on a K series go for stock cars but stranger things have happened.

    Sorry don't have an experience on Castrol oils I tend to avoid them.