Engine & Gearbox iCTDI Engine Cuts Out

Discussion in '7th Generation (2003-2008) [Acura TSX]' started by rayhoop, Tuesday 5th Feb, 2013.

  1. rayhoop Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Keerat Amersham
    115
    34
    1
    I have a problem with the Accord

    Jan 2004 Accord Saloon, 2.2. ICTDI Exec.
    Standard ECU/Map, no mods.

    When on full throttle, in 3rd gear at 3k revs the engine dies. It cuts out completely without warning. E.g. there is no hesitation or gradual loss of power, warning light before it happens... it just cuts out and then gives me the flashing glow plug and check engine light.

    The following fault codes are stored:
    P0087
    P1065
    P2004 - this has been coming/going for a very long time. Happened more with supermarket fuel, much less now I'm back on Vpower

    Some recent history.

    In Nov 2012, I was getting hesitation and the engine dropping into limp mode with the glow plug light flashing and check engine light on. The same fault codes were logged. To fix this the fuel filter was changed. The old filter removed was a Bosch filter that was fitted by Honda during a major service in 2008/2009. The new filter fitted was a Bosch filter (a new/spare which I supplied to my mechanic).

    The car ran sweet after that - healthy power all through the rev range. The engine was boosting really well (it hadnt done that in a long time).

    During the snow/ICE we had recently (Jan 2013 for those who have forgotten), when accelerating up a motorway slip road the traction control kicked in due to a tiny bit of wheel spin on ICE. Continued up the slip road with a fair bit of throttle as I needed to build some speed... without warning the engine cut out completely (I kept my foot on the accelerator), then it started itself back up... then cut out again within 1/2 a second... then started back up itself and continued without any problem - no flashing lights, no check engine light, no fault code stored... I was very confused. No warning lights... so I thought "maybe it was an extreme VSA reaction - cutting the power then giving it back"... but was not convinced.

    Car drove fine for a couple of weeks... then on Friday 1st Feb, on the same point of the motorway slip road (slightly up hill) the engine completely died without warning. Momentum of the car enabled me to pull into the hard shoulder. The glow plug light was flashing, and the check engine light was on. The car would crank but not fire. Fault codes logged as above. Rang the AA, was waiting for someone to answer... so every minute or so I would try to start the car (I stayed in the car, as it was on the hard shoulder even before the slip road meets the motorway, and its a quiet slip road)... after about 5 mins, the car started... (the AA had still not picked up, so I hung up). I continued my journey keeping it under 3k revs in 3rd/4th and 5th gear. No issues red lining it on full throttle in neutral, 1st and 2nd.

    On Saturday 2nd, exiting a side road onto a busy national speed limit A-road I needed to give it full throttle in 1st and 2nd which was fine, but in 3rd gear at 3k revs it died on me. I didnt expect it as the road was level - so I thought "less load - the car should be ok", but no.


    I've read the threads re: fuel filters etc...
    http://hondakarma.com/threads/115/

    I know the Bosch fuel filter is not branded 'Honda', but the last fuel filter was Bosch and lasted ages. I'm also curious to know who makes the filters for Honda.

    My mechanic did suggest we could try a Honda supplied fuel filter (as he is fully aware of the recommendation to only fit Honda supplied fuel filters), but he is slightly concerned by the way the engine is cutting out and not going into Limp mode - he thinks it 'might' be the fuel pump, but to have a look at the filter first.

    I have a few options.

    1) Get my mechanic to fit a Honda supplied fuel filter (cost of a filter + 1 hour labour) & hope it works
    2) Drive the car to Honda and get it run on their diagnostic machine & hope they say it is only a fuel filter issue (still would be £300 diagnosed, supplied, fitted from Honda)
    3) Part ex the car with someone like CarGiant and cut my losses
    4) Sell to someone from here (fully advising them of the issue of course!) who wants it for all the good bits (turbo, box, clutch, airbags etc...)

    It has 155k miles on the clock. A few battle scars on the bumpers, but a well kept serviced car. MOT till Nov 2013

    New fuel filter + another oil change in Nov 2012
    New drivers side rear ABS sensor in June 2012
    New Honda clutch and DMF in May 2012 (with engine and gearbox oils changed, brake + clutch fluid flushed, coolant flushed)
    New front wishbone bushes and drop links fitted in Nov 2011 & 4 wheel laser alignment done
    Had 4 decent Michelin tyres fitted in Summer 2011
    New turbo & manifold & timing chain + injectors etc from Honda in Feb 2010 (or was it 2009?)
    EGR replaced the year before the turbo and timing chains

    Just wondering... is it worth trying to fix... or shall I just get shot?

    It just feels wrong to get rid of it...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sunday 23rd Feb, 2014
  2. Brodziu Valued Contributor ★ ★ ★ ☆ ☆

    Greg Manchester
    396
    95
    I would try first to change OEM FF supplied by Honda as far as I remember I paid over £30 for part and I did it myself, if you're not so confident that you can DIY then give it to your mechanic, you should be able to enjoy your car again for approx. £80
     
    Loading...
  3. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

    England Speedy Birmingham
    14,999
    5,591
    4
    As Brodziu says try the OEM fuel filter first then if you still have issues get the fuel pump checked out.

    The cutting out does sound like a fuel starvation issue.
     
    Loading...
  4. rayhoop Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Keerat Amersham
    115
    34
    1
    Hm
    I don't know why I didnt just do that anyways... I knew that is what most of you guys/gals would say!
    It was just that the way in which the engine was dying - cutting out HARD, rather than loosing power and going into limp - was making me think is this something worse? Has anyone else experienced this?

    Anyway...

    So
    Just ordered a Honda Fuel Filter from HH. I'll DIY it at some point over the weekend. For the price of a fuel filter and a bit of time, it is worth a punt. Worst case scenario, I lose some time and a few quid and still have an issue. Best case, it fixes it and I use the car for a bit longer.

    Fingers crossed.
     
  5. i-DSI Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    Belgium Aalst
    1,046
    300
    1
    It there's a fuel starvation, the engine will always cut out 'at once', without warning, to protect the fuel supply system (lubrication via diesel fuel of fuel pump and injectors).
    Same goes for a broken injector, but if they have been changed a few years ago...
    DTC's point in this direction (fuel starvation because of freezing fuel, clogged filter, fuel pump...):
    DTC P0087: Fuel Rail Pressure Too Low

    P1065
    Fuel pressurel lower than expected

    This one points to other issue:
    DTC P2004: IMRC Valve Incorrect Position

    Check the vacuum hoses and vacuum pump. Do your brakes feel normal?
     
    Loading...
  6. Beefy Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    United Kingdom Stoke
    1,113
    683
    1
    i don't think it is your fuel filter if ime honnest. its sounds like the car is struggling for fuel at high load and therefore high fuel rail preasure. with the mileage your car has covered you could well be looking at a new high preasure fuel pump. idealy this should be checked live using a HDS but it depends if you want to have honda look at it. idealy if the problem can be replicated at will i would reccomend swapping a known good fuel pump and re-try. could be a number of other faults allong the high or low preasure fuel supply, affected by a miss-fuel etc. but with high mileage comes the likelyhood of a worn fuel pump. let us know how you get on but if you need the right advise and propper diagnosis rather than running round in circles with back street garages. honda is your way forward and of course who better than HH. i would say that though but in all seriousness we look after everyone as many have testified on here.
     
    Loading...
  7. rayhoop Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Keerat Amersham
    115
    34
    1
    Brakes feel normal. Honda previously advised me this was a intake manifold/runner flap that is sticking open. Said not to worry. I got this error once every few months when I was on Tesco diesel.. and it started occuring more often (weekly) when I was using Asda diesel. Since switching back to Vpower and running for ages on this it comes on much less often (monthly).

    Totally agree. Honda will give a definite diagnosis, but at a cost. Considering my car is not worth much now I want to weigh up options before investing more money into it.

    I've always used Honda for servicing and repairs - it was only at 145k is miles last year that I let a Japanese specialist loose on it. They did a good job at a good price to be honest. Whilst they have lots of modern kit to read codes from ECUs/ABS modules etc... they don't have the full HDS.

    The Honda fuel filter should arrive tomorrow, so will swap it out on the weekend and will let you know how I get on. I had a call from an old employer today... so potentially may be switching jobs at the end of the month, bringing me back onto a 160mile round trip commute on a daily basis.... If that is the case I'll most likley p/x the accord for something younger for the comfort/confidence factor. If I don't turn up to work, I don't get paid. I can't risk that.

    Anyhow - I'll let you know how I get on.
     
  8. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
    30,126
    6,378
    516
    if it came to worn out fuel pump and you want to work within your cars value.. speak to Chris aka hondavtecr. He has amasses quite a collection of bits for the I-CTDI engine so you have that option.
     
    Loading...
    rayhoop likes this.
  9. Jim Jones New Member Getting Started

    UK
    2
    Hi I've had the same problem mine is a 2006 CTDI 155000 miles. Changed the TPS sensor fitted a Honda fuel filter and it's still cutting out. What I have noticed with mine though is that it starts to happen as soon as the engine reaches a certain temperature so it will run for about 45mins to an hour then lose throttle power. Leave it for 30 mins thin it will run for about 5mins leave it over night and it will run for about 45 again.
    I took it to a auto electrician (£130 for a few hours investigation ) and they said it its the ECU but I'm not convinced. I notice yesterday that the coolant was very low so I filled it but I'm still having the same problem.
    Is it worth just taking it to honda as I've already spent a few hundred pounds with garages who don't seem to know what they are talking about?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also the heating was only working when when accelerating but not it not working at all.
     
  10. RobB Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    I wonder if your engine is overheating.
    The engine protects itself by cutting out.
    The 5 mins to restart would also fit with this.
    The fault codes could just old ones, or from when the filter was changed.
    Check coolant levels.
     
  11. Jim Jones New Member Getting Started

    UK
    2
    The coolant was very low. I filled it up yesterday could something be damaged because it still kept cutting out.
     
  12. RobB Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    You could knacker your head gasket.
    But hopefully the safety cut out prevented any significant problems.
    You need to find out why it's losing coolant.
     
  13. i-DSI Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    Belgium Aalst
    1,046
    300
    1
    Hi Jim,

    Do you get any warning of an overheating engine?
    You should see 3 things:
    - gauge moving to the red area
    - warning light (orange color) indicating the water with thermometer
    - steam coming out of the radiator cap
    => if you see none of these 3, hard to believe your engine is overheating.
    Honestly: never heard of engine cutting off to protect itself because of high temp. Not saying it's impossible, but I have doubts. A manufacturer would not do this as it might bring the occupants in danger if this can happen without(!!) any warning to the driver (gauge, indicator).
     
    Loading...
  14. Beefy Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    United Kingdom Stoke
    1,113
    683
    1
    the ICTDI engine has got a safeguard for engine over heating. the revs are reduced basicly going in to limp home mode and eventualy will cut out but yes at that point the temperature reading on the guage should have warned the driver about the engines impending doom.
     
    Loading...
  15. i-DSI Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    Belgium Aalst
    1,046
    300
    1
    Hi Beefy,
    If you're right, than Jim's Accord does not have an overheated engine. His cuts off without any warning.
     
    Loading...
  16. RobB Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    The fact that Jim's car has very low coolant and wouldn't restart for five mins all point to cutting out due to overheating. Also it seems to happen when under heavier loading ( thus more heat ).
    This isn't the first time I've heard of this issue with the ICTDI.
     
  17. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
    30,126
    6,378
    516
  18. i-DSI Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    Belgium Aalst
    1,046
    300
    1
    Seems you're right, Rob. I've learned something. Thanks.
     
    Loading...
  19. rayhoop Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Keerat Amersham
    115
    34
    1
    Quick update.

    My Honda original Fuel Filter arrived from HH - it is a Bosch item. Seeing that, I decided to give the existing Bosch fuel filter another chance as it was just fitted in Nov/Dec 2012.

    Checked plumbing of fuel filter - all ok
    Bled the fuel filter - fuel 'bubbled' out, so I repeated the bleeding till fuel 'spilled' out
    Warmed up the engine and road tested as best I could within speed/traffic limits - I could not get the engine to cut out or to drop into limp mode.

    I'll keep an eye on it - see what happens. But looks like the cutting out cold is just another symptom of air in the filter.

    Note - it didnt do this immediately after the filter was fitted... but I do recall recently running the tank into the reserve and having to fill it with 58 litres of diesel... so it is likely that running the diesel that low introduced air into the system.

    Fingers crossed - lets see how it runs for the next week or two. If it does it again, I'll swap out the fuel filter with the one HH supplied.

    Lesson - don't run the tank into reserve!
     
  20. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
    30,126
    6,378
    516
    diesels and low fuel don't get along buddy.
     
    Loading...