Engine & Gearbox Idle speed

Discussion in '8th Generation (2008-2015) [Acura TSX]' started by mtdk, Tuesday 16th Sep, 2014.

  1. mtdk Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Martin Dk
    27
    2
    Goodmorning :Smile:

    Well, 1st time honda owner - so Im unsure about a couple of things.

    Had my "new" honda for a couple of months now, and it drove really perfect - until it got serviced :Frown:
    Its a 2009, 4 door, 2.0 with Automatic - located in Denmark (LHD model :Smile:)

    The first thing I got done when I got it was gearoil change (new type), later I got a big service
    done including spark plugs etc. and after this I have some minor issues. I tried resetting the ECU
    (disconnect battery and following the learn procedure, hope this was right :Smile:)
    This helped a bit - but still minor things bother me.

    I have starting problem that I think relates to the idle control (?), when I start it struggles and seems
    do die a bit, and then jumps to "normal" idle wich is a bit higher (about 1200, wich should be ok for
    normal cold idle)

    the other thing is the normal idle speed, the first 20 minutes, the idle can get really low, as low as 500
    and pressing the throttle can make it cough (hope its spelled right). Its rare that the idle gets this
    low, and on good days its around 700.

    So, anyone knows how to proceed with locating the fault? and anyone knows the correct idle speed?
    The idle has definately chenged, and is not so smooth and nice as it used to be

    best regards
    Martin :Smile:
     
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  2. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

    England Speedy Birmingham
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    Hi Martin, where did you get the car serviced at ? Sounds like they did something wrong during the service .. caused a vacuum leak perhaps ?

    BTW it's customary to say a few words about yourself and your car in the "Introduction" section, please drop by there.
     
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  3. mtdk Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Martin Dk
    27
    2
    Hi :Smile:

    introduction.. - check :Smile: must have done something wrong earlier (did write, but must have clicked wrong button) but
    a new post has been made :Smile:

    regarding my small issue, I have tried checking the vacuum hoses I could find, also tried listening, but with no luck.
    I have been reading about an idle control valve (would this be sometihing worth using more time on?)

    My first idea was wrong plugs? but again, would this cause what Im experiencing? I used a garage that I trust with
    a mecanic I know, but I also felt like something during service went wrong, but the only things changed is plugs,
    cabin filter, oil etc. (had transmission oil changed at a honda dealer/workshop to make sure correct original oil
    was to be used).

    when I did a reset and the PCM learn procedure, the idle got much more stabile then what it was. I suspect that the
    car was reset with the Bosch tester when it was serviced, but without the relearn procedure (?)

    Any idea what the idle speed should be on an automatic when everything is ok? :Smile:

    Martin
    - - - Updated - - -
    oh, BTW - My starting issue seems to be different depending on how long the car have stood still. after
    5 hours starting it is ok and seems normal, after evening and overnight, seems to be worse the following
    morning. don't know if it makes sense :Smile:
     
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  4. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

    England Speedy Birmingham
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    :Thumbup:

    Hmm not sure ... @Ichiban can you please advise.

    That kind of points to a leaking injector ... pull the plugs and see if one of them looks worse than the others.
     
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  5. mtdk Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Martin Dk
    27
    2
    Great, I will try and have a look around the plugs :Smile:

    Found something with the idle in a service manual. Its hould be 800 +/- 50 on a A/T (maybe someone can confirm this)
    my idle seems to be on the low side around 650/700 ish. But perhaps I could get a more precise RPM with an OBD readout (?)

    Will get back when I have time to check the plugs :Smile:
     
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  6. ampers Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Hi,
    I've a 2010 2.0 petrol manual saloon and I used to have a slow idle for a couple of seconds following a stone cold start, a quick blip of the throttle and tick over was fine. I checked plugs, vacuum etc and found nothing wrong but when I started to use premium petrol the problem was "cured" and generally ran better with possibly better fuel consumption.
    Some years ago I had a 2003 Civic and that definitely ran generally better with premium fuel. I'm not saying that fuel is the problem but maybe higher quality fuel masks the problem a bit.
    I am now using 0w30 oil and am looking at 0w20 in the future, I don't what grade of oil was in it when I had the problem but is it possible that 5w40 or worse grade oil could cause a COLD start tick over problem?
     
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  7. mtdk Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Martin Dk
    27
    2
    Hi :Smile:

    I use the same petrolstations as I normally do (either Shell or Statoil). I guess its worth checking my oil, and wich grade they put
    in when it was serviced.
     
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  8. i-DSI Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    Belgium Aalst
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    Hi mtdk,
    As already suggested by Speedygee: because troubles started just after maintenance, the cause must be there somewhere.
    If there's no vacuum leak, check this really carefully:
    - Spark plugs: within Honda, the spark plugs are only used on this engine, they are not 'common' and a non-honda dealers will never have them on shelf. Please check very carefully the correct ones have been used. I have been fooled once before (not on a Honda car) on a part desk with plugs that fitted perfect but were not according to manufacturers' specs. This caused also idle speed problems. Correct iridium spark plugs are NGK, Honda pn 12290-R60-U01. On the spark plug you can read: NGK IR IZFR6K 11NS. As said, they are rare, don't be happy with an alternative 'that fits the hole'. There might be one allowed alternative to this one (from Denso if I remember well) but I have no details about them.
    - engine oil: has too thick oil been used? Max. viscosity allowed in this engine is 10W40. If yours start with 15 or higher or ends with 50: wrong.
     
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  9. mtdk Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Martin Dk
    27
    2
    Hi

    Thanks for the reply. Just to be sure, I have booked a new oil change tomorrow, and will see if they have time to pull the plugs and have a look. I noticed that the plugs that was changed last service, were pretty expensive. In my manual there is a NGK plug and one from Denso, So I guess you are right about 2 different ones.

    Just a side note, I have been reading a bit, and on earlier models, there was 2 types of idle valves, a cold idle control valve, and a normal idle speed control valve. Perhaps someone knows if there is these 2 types on this model Accord?

    Martin
     
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  10. mtdk Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Martin Dk
    27
    2
    A small update. Just to besure about the oil, I had an oil change to a good 5W30, and checked the plugs.
    The plugs was definately changed last service- they were as new and very clean. The type was NGK
    IZFR6K11NS, so I guess that ok?

    Will return with more updates regarding my idle issue if it continues (will need to check with the car
    being cold in the mornings).

    Best regards
    Martin
     
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  11. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    Hi Martin,

    Here are some diagrams to help you to look and trace the vacuum pipes
    R20A3 Vacuum Distribution 1.PNG

    R20A3 Vacuum Distribution 2.PNG R20A3 Vacuum Hose Routing.PNG


    Before checking the idle speed, check these items:
    - The malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) has not been reported on, and there are no DTCs.
    - Ignition timing
    - Spark plugs
    - Air cleaner
    - PCV system
    - Headlight off
    1. Disconnect the evaporative emission (EVAP) canister purge valve connector.
    1. Connect the HDS to the data link connector (DLC) (A) located under the driver's side of the dashboard, or a tachometer (B) to the test tachometer connector (C).
    1. When using the HDS, make sure the HDS communicates with the ECM/PCM. If it doesn't, go to the DLC circuit troubleshooting .
    1. Start the engine. Hold the engine speed at 3,000 rpm (min -1 ) without load (A/T in P or N, M/T in neutral) until the radiator fan comes on, then let it idle.
    1. Check the idle speed without load conditions: headlights, blower fan, radiator fan, and air conditioner off.

      Idle speed should be:


      M/T

      680±50 rpm (min -1 )

      A/T

      650±50 rpm (min -1 ) (in P or N)
    1. Let the engine idle for 1 minute with high electric load (A/C switch on, temperature set to max cool, blower fan on High, and headlights on high beam).

      Idle speed should be:


      M/T

      710±50 rpm (min -1 )

      A/T

      710±50 rpm (min -1 ) (in P or N)

      NOTE: If the idle speed is not within specification, do the ECM/PCM idle learn procedure . If the idle speed is still not within specification, go to symptom troubleshooting.
    1. Reconnect the EVAP canister purge valve connector.
    Additionally can you please try the Accelerator Pedal Kickdown Click System Learn Procedure

    Procedure
    1. Turn the ignition switch to ON (II).

    NOTE: Do not start the engine in step 1 through 3.
    2. Shift the shift lever in P or N.
    3. Press the accelerator pedal until touch the floor for at least 5 seconds.
    4. Make sure the shift lever is in P. If the shift lever in N, move the shift lever from N to P.
    5. Start the engine. Test-drive the vehicle to check that a problem does not occur on the accelerator pedal kickdown click system.
     
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  12. mtdk Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Martin Dk
    27
    2
    Hi Ichiban

    Wow, that will help me quity a bit :Smile: will try and have a look around and check some
    of the vacuum hoses etc.

    It seems like my idle is a bit more stabile, around 700rpm, and only when A/C (climate) activates,
    it dips a bit and I get some vibration. Other then that, the idle seems better.
    So, my biggest issue is when starting, its very lumpy the first 2 seconds and then jums to normal
    raised RPM during warmup.

    Could this be either a fuel issue or something attached to the AUX belt?
    My first thought was fuel (filter/pump?) Actually when starting, it feels like its missing
    1 cylinder for a couple of seconds. Perhaps I would be able to attach a OBD reader
    and have a look at live data when starting - would this perhaps tell me something?

    Even with these small issues, I really enjoy driving this Accord, by far the best set of
    wheels I owned so far :Smile:

    Best regards
    Martin
     
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  13. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

    England Speedy Birmingham
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    Have you pulled the sparks plugs out ? The colour of the plugs can tell you a lot. For example if one of them is a lighter colour than the others, then that can indicate that the injector is passing less fuel through than the others.
     
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  14. mtdk Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Martin Dk
    27
    2
    yep, the plugs looks fine, I went to another mecanic I know, and had him change the oil and look at the plugs. He asked if
    they were new :Smile: I confirmed that the plugs was only a couple of months old :Smile:

    I think that the idle is back to normal (there still seem to be some vibrations, but thats another story :Smile:)

    The only thing left for me, is to figure out why the startup is so bad - It seems like its missing a cylinder
    for a second or two :Sorry:then fires up and is all normal. The idle jumps to normal raised RPM when cold
    (around 1200 RPM and then drops slowly to 900 as it gets a bit hotter after a couple of minutes). It hits
    normal idle (about 700) when the temp. is within normal range. So all this seems pretty normal exept
    the startup

    I have been reading and of course watching youtube :Grin: and on older Accords there was 2 different
    idle controls. "fast idle control valve" I think it was called and the other "idle speed control valve" if I remember
    correctly. The fast Idle valve was a mecanical type that could stick etc. giving bad startup RPM

    Perhaps someone knows if this exists on this type of accord?
    or perhaps a schematic with the different sensors and their locations?

    At the moment Im trying to get my OBD interface to work - its pretty uncooperative

    btw, thanks for all you help :Wink:
     
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  15. ArcticFire-Account Closed Banned Getting Started

    Scotland Graham Scotland
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    Have you checked the MAF sensor and gave it a clean? Very quick and easy job and worth doing considering all the problems a dirty MAF and IAT sensor can cause.
     
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  16. mtdk Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Martin Dk
    27
    2
    Hi :Smile:

    Actually no - perhaps I should do that. I have been busy looking for vacuum leaks, ignition etc.
    :Smile:

    Will try it later today
     
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  17. ArcticFire-Account Closed Banned Getting Started

    Scotland Graham Scotland
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  18. mtdk Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Martin Dk
    27
    2
    I tried pulling it out and giving it a good clean. Unfortunately it didnt have any affect on my problem, so its back to the drawing board :Smile: the sensor acutally looked more like an Air Intake Sensor, then the types of flow sensors I have seen. But anyway its now clean :Smile:
     
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  19. ArcticFire-Account Closed Banned Getting Started

    Scotland Graham Scotland
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  20. mtdk Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Martin Dk
    27
    2
    Hi again

    I have in the recent months watched the same guy on youtube - lost of good stuff :Smile:

    I have a small update on my remaining starting issue. A couple of days ago, I had the Accord updated
    with the latest software, but this has not fixed the problem (not that I expected that :Grin:) but now thats
    been done. But - when I start the car, but place my left foot on the brake, and the right on the throttle
    and just push it a tiny bit (0,5-1 centimeter), it starts as it should without problems.

    So could this indicate that my problem could be on the air intake side? the problem is at the first second/seconds upon
    startup.

    Martin
     
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