Suspension, Steering and Brakes Is rear camber adjustment possible on a 59 plate Type-S??

Discussion in '8th Generation (2008-2015) [Acura TSX]' started by seanussp, Thursday 14th Mar, 2013.

  1. seanussp Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Hi,

    I recently posted and added pics, when I became the proud owner of a Basque red Type-S tourer....

    When I tested the Type-S, I immediately noticed it wandered to the left when coasting and in-gear. I asked the garage (Redhill Honda, Surrey) to check the alignment once they replaced two tyres which they were not 'happy' with, one of which only had 2mm on its inside edge.
    I was informed this would be completed. When I collected the car, it was still wandering to the left and when the car went over uneven sections of road (the entire journey.......) the back-end felt like it was on space hoppers!
    So, I've been scouring the threads and initially came across IchibanAccord's post ref. the alignment settings for the gen 8. After further searching, A-Line 4-wheek alignment specialists in Dudley, seemed to be mentioned and recommended.
    I've managed to have the alignment done - A-Line confirmed the Hunter settings were aligned (pardon the pun!!) with the settings posted by IchibanAccord and performed the process.
    The front castor, camber and toe were spot on. The rear however, was a different story. (A-Line print out at the base of this post). Basically, the Camber on the nearside rear is -2 ° 10 ' and the offside rear is -1 ° 55 '. Also, the Toe on the nearside rear is 0 ° 11 ' and offside rear Toe is 0 ° 02 '. The guys at A-Line explained how the current Camber on the rears is pushing the car to the right, which in turn is then turning the vehicle in as the front is within tollerance. Also whilst on the ramps, they noticed the back was sitting circa 10mm than the front. The only thing in the car was a child seat and a nearly full tank of diesel. Their assumption was either the suspension arms were bent (highly unlikely) or both shocks were knackered, hence the excessive Camber on the rear.

    Called the garage and it went in today, the 14th so they can 'check' it themselves. The service manager mumbled the camber was not something they checked on the extensive 'Assured' checks all Honda's undergo prior to being listed as 'Approved' and that also it does have a 'few' miles under its belt (106K with Full Main dealer S/H). At this point, I reminded him of my request that the alignment was checked once the new tyres were fitted AND that this fault's symptons were noticed but not identified on the test drive.

    Just had a call from the Service manager saying the car has been checked and it only needs adjusting - is this possible on a standard Type-S??

    Any advice would be a great help prior to collecting the car.

    thanks

    Seanus
     
  2. DeviateDefiant Co-Founder Staff Team

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    It's quite interesting, I've been having similar problems with my '03 Accord (7th Generation). I've had my rear campers adjusted (front were fine) and I'm still getting near random pull to the left/right and shake in my steering wheel. Wheels have all been balanced as well (though I have uneven wear on my rears).

    I've had it mentioned to me that I may be looking at drop-link problems, then again off-chance of suspension like yours.
     
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  3. richsprint Account Closed. ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    I don't know if the rear is adjustable, but I guess its a case of test driving it to see if its fixed.

    I guess with 106k under its belt there is a chance the rear shocks are worn out or some suspension bushes might need replacing, explaining the bad alignment at the back.

    Has it been used to tow? This could wear the back suspension out more quickly?

    Possible also it could have been hit at the back or side also, look for any signs of a respray around the back end.

    Hope it gets sorted out.
     
  4. seanussp Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Thanks for the info,

    Car has no signs of having had a tow hitch previously fitted and it came with a HPI report confirming no insurance claims etc etc. It was previously a company car, so would assume it would have been repaired, all above board if it had been hit....

    just spoke with my local dealership and they have confirmed the rear is NOT adjustable for camber. Honda UK, Slough are going to provide a response by COB Tuesday.

    It will be interesting to see what the dealership say can be adjusted.
     
  5. richsprint Account Closed. ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Must be worn shocks causing it then?
     
  6. seanussp Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Update - the dealership could not find anything wrong with the rear suspension when they checked it during Monday. After asking what was the next action, they suggested requesting tech assistance from Honda UK.

    Honda UK came back on Tuesday morning, having reviewed the alignment results and stated the upper suspension arms should be replaced - this was followed by a return call to me from Honda UK (different tech bod) who suggested the same prior to me explaining what the dealership had been informed. Apparantly he wasn't aware of the dealership logging the same tech request.

    Soo - the dealership have agreed to replace the upper arms (at their cost [£500] AND despite their reckoning I will not notice any difference!!)

    My repsonse - if Honda UK tech have suggested this purely from the readings of the alignment, then please get on with it.

    Glad to say, this is just as some of the senior members have stated on other posts - if the problem is legit, no worries........Hats off to Honda!!

    Should get the car back on Friday evening, as they have called tonight to confirm no upper arms were in the country. Then it will be straight down to Dudley Aline on Monday morning to check the alignment.
     
  7. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

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    Result but would like to know how they got out of spec in the first place?
     
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  8. seanussp Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Dealership keep saying it is the 106K its done, but I suppose it could also be down to decent loads in the back. The car was a Lex autolease car and having just returned my company car to them, they maintain v.tight control on work completed on their cars. The HPI check came back clean when completed prior to buying.
     
  9. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

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    Suppose the mileage may have a contributing factor.
     
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  10. tomwillie Valued Contributor ★ ★ ★ ☆ ☆

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    It looks as though rear camber is out of spec as range should be min: -1 deg 42 sec & max: -0 deg 42 sec. I had a problem with excessive rear tyre wear after having had 4 new Michelin Primacy 3's fitted to my 2.4EXi & realignment being done by local main Honda dealer at 30k miles. After only 3300 miles the front had worn from 7mm new down to 6mm ie 1mm wear but rears had worn nearly 2mm. Previous owner of car advised rear tyres at 30k miles were original tyres, which is as expected. Took car back to dealer for alignment re-check & initial toe of rears was nothing like the final readings of first alignment had been, the second alignment was showing 0 deg 14 min left & 0 deg 18 min right ie too much toe in. Michelin advised getting both front & rears as parallel as possible. Second alignment now showing 0 deg 01 sec on all four wheel as I requested. Situation being monitored, but 500 miles after second alignment no additional measurable wear on any of the tyres so hopefully OK. After discussion with dealer was not charged for second alignment, I believe when the first alignment was done the rear wheel alignment measuring equipment was not attached correctly. Interesting article on alignment by Crypton can be downloaded from http://www.crypton.co.za/Tto know/Wheel Alignment/Wheel Alignment Simplified.pdf
     
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  11. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

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    Last edited by a moderator: Sunday 23rd Feb, 2014
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  12. seanussp Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Morning,

    Well, Redhill drove my car back on the Friday evening it began to snow, arriving at 10pm! Obviously didn't get much chance to talk/look at/or drive the car. In fact I didn't drive the car until the Tuesday.
    I did 40 miles and the dealership regeneration light came on!!!! (Redhill had regenereated only 1K ago, prior to me collecting). Sooo, called Redhill, they asked for me to take it to my local dealer, which just happens to be where the next meet it going to be - Holdcroft Honda!!
    They attempted to regen but found the aircon was not working.....after 2 days & the Bank Holiday it was confirmed the control panel had a fault. This was replaced and a curtesy car provided by Holdcroft (can't fault their attention to detail) throughout. Collected the car on Tuesday morning last week with the regen having been completed and took the car straight downm to Aline in Dudley. Filled the fuel tank and put it on the Hunter ramp. The rear is better, BUT still out of spec. This is the best bit - whilst it was on the ramp, we both had a look at the new 'upper rear arms' - GUESS WHAT?? Redhill Honda HAD NOT replaced them. They had only replaced the nearside rear lower control arm. Everything else was original.
    I returned home and called Honda UK immediately. Spoke with a techie and it is due to go into Holdcroft for a 4 wheel alignment to clarify if the Hunter results are correct.

    My question is to Ichiban = I noticed noticed you say there is a fundamental issue with Honda aligment equipment. Would you mind expanding, before I take the car in. Also, the nearside rear is now only -1.57 (manufacturer tollerance is -1.30) and a marginal -1.36 on the offside rear, so is it worth bothering with??

    thanks

    Seanuss
     
  13. tomwillie Valued Contributor ★ ★ ★ ☆ ☆

    England Tom Royston
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    I do not believe there is anything fundamentally wrong with "Honda" alignment equipment only how it's used by some technicians & I expect different dealers use different equipment. Norton Way Honda in Letchworth use Sun wheel alignment equipment. The max negative camber with 17 in wheel is -1.30, as you stated, but with 18 in wheel it's -1.42. I've read an article that stated if a suspension lowering kit has been fitted do not waste money with rear camber kit to take increased negative camber out just make certain rear wheel are parallel. I believe on 7th Generation Accord that under warranty Honda would fit new top arms, both sides, to take out excessive negative camber. Even though there is negative camber within specifications, -1.20 ns & -1.13 os, on my 2.4Exi with 18 in wheels the outer grooves have worn to 5mm whereas all other three inner grooves are 5.5mm & this was probably due to initial rear alignment having too much toe in of 0.14 ns & 0.18 os & thus causing my rapid rear tyre wear. Have only done 700 miles since second alignment & no measurable wear has taken place. So if your car drives straight and rear tyre wear is OK then leave it at that but seems odd that only one arm replaced? The first owner of my car advised that original rears were on the car when he traded it in at 30k miles, which is what I would expect if tyres not swapped back to front as I do each year.
     
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  14. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

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    Apologies for the delay Honda have no defined guidelines under their franchise agreements for authorised service centres to have specified alignment machines. The dealer can chose any alignment machine as long it meets industry standards. these standard are as huge and open ended.

    The hunter machine is the bentley of alignment machine , majority of honda dealerships have Kia of alignment machine .. bare bones basic minimum.

    Can you please upload pictures of the alignment chat before and after need to see the 4 wheel alignment geometry than just rear and numbers.
     
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  15. seanussp Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Morning,

    Thanks for the replies.

    Pictures of Hunter results before and after. I've also attached a picture of the only item to have been replaced, which given is only one item, certainly isn't both upper rear suspension arms @ £500....

    1st results
    View attachment 8543

    2nd results
    View attachment 8544

    The only item replaced by Redhill Honda (they informed me both rear upper suspension arms were to be replaced)
    View attachment 8545
     
  16. tomwillie Valued Contributor ★ ★ ★ ☆ ☆

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    I cannot see attachments, reported it yesterday but no response from webmater yet?
     
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  17. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

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    Hi Tom,

    I haven't received a PM from you did you send it via the contact us link on the forum?

    As for the images its a known issue which is well documented here http://hondakarma.com/threads/1898/ and the workaround how to minimise it , I am working for a permanent solution to this issue.

    but for now the posters has reinsert the images as I cannot recover these images, I only have an hour window after they have been posted to recover them.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sunday 23rd Feb, 2014
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  18. seanussp Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Morning,

    The pics were uploaded via the insert image route last time, so this time I have uploaded/attached the images via the attachments route. Hopefully this will work this time.

    Let me know if you can't view them once again.

    thanks.


    1st Hunter results. 2nd Hunter results. control arm.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Tuesday 16th Apr, 2013
  19. richsprint Account Closed. ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Pretty complex rear suspension isnt it. Wishbone with strut and spring, 3 control arms and an anti roll bar. I would have thought a trailing arm with the strut and spring would have been simpler.

    Any one of the rubber bushes on the control arms, wishbone or anti roll bar could be worn, so thats over 10 to check I reckon?
     
  20. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

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    could you inset better quality images of the hunter readout even in zoom mode they get pixelated.