General Lubricants and environments

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by SayamaAccord, Sunday 30th Sep, 2012.

  1. SayamaAccord Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    I've replicated this quote of Doc's from the Expedition thread because I think this is a wider issue for car owners nowadays.

    Some petrol owners for example have differing views about whether 5W 20 oil should be specified for most 2003-on Honda petrols including the Accord if Honda do not spec it for the Civic Type-R or the Legend or any Honda diesel, I assume for reasons of insufficient engine protection. So is 5W 20 really the best oil out there for my 2.4 Accord? [CJ and I have debated this one until the small hours!]

    Likewise I understand from elsewhere on the web that Honda MTF III is the equivalent thickness of ATF or 5W 20 and Honda are by no means alone in specifying gearbox oil this thin as Ford among others do as well now. And yet the most reputable aftermarket quality synthetic MTFs are not made this thin.

    I guess it boils down to the evidence, which the car makers research labs have more of than the man in the street, although no lab can ever replicate the realities of several years real world use.

    But whose interests are coming first in all of this?
     
  2. SayamaAccord Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Same thing applies to EGR systems, catalytic converters and DPFs I guess....

    ...although some are optional, but some aren't...
     
  3. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    I going to change the oil on my Accord at 4000 miles for another round for 0w-20 and at 8000 miles I am reverting to 5w-40.

    The 0w-20 is a good engine run-in oil and by 8 thousand miles the engine will be ready for ester grade oil.:Wink: I am still going to stick with MTF-3 as I have never had an issue and it gearbox never complains going to be changed every 12500 miles.
     
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  4. SayamaAccord Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Sorry my mistake I meant 0W 20.

    Yup and likewise I have used Castrol gearbox oil which is maybe on paper/or maybe not? a wee bit thick for a Honda gearbox for several years with no issues whatsoever and a perfectly behaving gearbox. I see plenty of people on US forums saying they have had gearbox problems but very few in the UK and of those they are usually the autos. The only issues I have seen over here have been with the ATR. So it's not clear if these problems have arisen through use of motor oil as recommended in previous years, or the wrong spec gear oil, or just general abuse of the car. But anyway I'm feeling brave/curious/stupid/whatever so I think I'll try the Red Line to get the well documented benefits of a full ester lubricant next time round and see how it goes. And of course report back.
     
  5. G12 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Penryn
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    I'm looking at a gearbox oil change too. I had no idea the original oil was so thin.
    I was at the dealers the other day getting my speakers replaced under warranty and asked how much it'd be for the gearbox oil to be replaced, £65 was the reply.
    Previously I've been to Opie oils in Redruth who are great in supplying equivalent oils so I was going to give them a call and see what they came up with. They sorted me out with a slightly unusual gearbox oil for my old Alpina B10 once. Maybe they can do the same with the Honda gear box oil too. £65 sounds a bit steep to me especially if the undertray is already removed as part of a normal service.

    My car only has 35k on the clock and they wondered why I wanted it changing. I think with 35k it's certainly ready to be done.
     
  6. SayamaAccord Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    I think Opie recommend Red Line and Amsoil...I understand the first is a Group V ester synthetic and second is a Group 4 PAO synthetic...both better base stocks than the Group III hydrocracked stock used in Honda MTF III, and both are thicker fluids.

    As mentioned above CJ changes his every year, but I change mine every other year.
     
  7. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    I for one would advocate Honda MTF fluid while others would say science and material are superior to additives in a hydrocracked oil.However the question which is frequently asked asked but no hard proof. Is aftermarket MTF is better than Honda MTF and why apart from science?

    I say aftermarket MTF results in poor shifting but would like others to contribute and give real life experiences.
     
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  8. SayamaAccord Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    The benefits of ester base stocks over hydrocracked are well established.

    Low viscosity fluids have protection issues as acknowledged by Honda themselves by not specifying them for some of their range. So you don't have to look any further than that for proof.

    If others have an environmental agenda fine but I'll decide whether I do nor not as a car owner rather than being typecast as a particular kind of driver by the car I drive.

    I've looked on the web for feedback on Red Line and 95% of it is good and the rest seems to involve inherent issues such as third gear in US Civics, boy racer abuse and using gear oil instead of MTF.

    You say there is no hard proof of the benefits of proper synthetic MTF but then go on to smear it without any hard proof either or even personal experience.

    Sometimes you have to read between the lines as an owner but here I think the writing is clear.
     
  9. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    EK9 turbo charged fully built motor with 400 plus wheel horsepower with above MTF resulted in poor shifting , switched to MTF 3 results in perfect shifting. So where have the advantages of a superior oil helped here.. it made it worse you need to appreciate it the additive in MTF 3 which isn't in the superior synthetic fluid.
     
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  10. G12 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Penryn
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    Is there a direct equivalent of MTF3 available from any manufacturer?

    Who makes the gearboxes, Honda or a 3rd party like ZF for example?
     
  11. SayamaAccord Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    I think the Amsoil holds itself out a replacement for MTF III - if you check out the relevant section of the Opie Oils and Boutique Oils websites they have more info - avoid the GL5s and 75W 90s and above though.

    Don't know who makes the gearboxes.
     
  12. G12 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Penryn
    110
    10
    It's interesting you should say that - Here's the opie oils recommendation page for the 2008 onwards 2.2 diesel manual and it's recommending a 75W/80, none of which are Amsoil.
    Opie Oils - car oil and motorbike oil sales and recommendations

    As I regularly pass Redruth I will pop in and see them. They've always been very helpful when I've done that in the past.

    EDIT:
    Just seen from Boutique oils that their recommendation for a replacement of MTF3 is the Amsoil 5W/30.... quite a difference between the two websites.
     
    Last edited: Monday 8th Oct, 2012
  13. SayamaAccord Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    I've seen Opie recommend the Red Line and Amsoil on forums. It'll be interesting to hear what he has to say.
     
  14. SayamaAccord Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    I see that two of the recommended fluids are GL5 but I think the Honda gearbox needs GL4.
     
  15. SayamaAccord Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Just put my car details into Opie and it recommended Red Line MTL, Amsoil MTF and Motul Motylgear 75W 80.:Unknown:
     
  16. Eck Senior Member ★ ★ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Not wanting to be too pedantic but just looking at oil maker and vicosities will not give the best results, the approved grade (ACEA) is the most important factor. You can buy for instance Castrol Edge 0W-30 but only two of the four containers I have looked at meets the A3/B3 or A5/B5 spec in the handbook for my car.
    A dealer shop I have looked at uses an oil which is of a grade not in the handbook. Oil is an ever changing/improving (?) material and I am trying to get Honda to publish a full list of oils and grades that they approve or state why dealers can use non approved grades. The grade used by that dealer is C3, from the oil classifications official list it states "Warning: these oils are unsuitable for use in some engines. Consult owner manual or handbook if in doubt. ". Honda have stated that consulting a dealer should be sufficient, I doubt if there exists in all of them the detailed experience of oil to make anything other than a commercial judgement on what is stocked and used.
    A bit of my high horse subject at the moment.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Friday 12th Oct, 2012
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  17. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    never heard of Boutique oils before this just looked them up on their facebook page, I can't locate where are they based? with all their prices in Euros it would seem not in the UK.
     
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  18. SayamaAccord Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆


    Personally I don't think it's Honda's job to go that far...if they specify the viscosity and ACEA rating the customer can take it from there by reading a label.

    Not saying either of us is right or wrong...just my opinion.

    I agree 100% though that you would expect every Honda dealer to supply an oil within Honda spec, without fail.
     
  19. SayamaAccord Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Based in Romania I think, but it's a global market nowadays....

    ....excellent site, very informative.
     
  20. oilman Special Partner Club Affiliate


    They're both really good oils, the Fuchs Sintofluid is a top quality one too. Using the correct GL5 oil can be absolutely fine in a GL4 application - GL5 is backwards compatible with GL4, so technically you can use any GL5 oil in a GL4 application as long as the viscosity is correct. It's not quite as simple as that though - some GL5 oils will stop the synchros slowing properly, leading to poor gear changes. There is another thing, not applicable to quality oils, but can affect the cheaper ones. When GL5 first appeared, the additive pack used in it could be corrosive to yellow metals (brass), so not suitable for a lot of gearboxes. However, reputable oil companies started using an additive package that is the same as a GL4 oil, but higher levels. That means that the correct GL5 oils (like the Sintofluid 75w-80) will be fine in a GL4 application. That does also only apply to reputable companies - some you see for a couple of quid per litre may still be using an old-fashioned additive pack and a GL5 could be harmful to brass.

    Cheers

    Tim