Engine & Gearbox My 7th Generation - the honeymoon is over...already!

Discussion in '7th Generation (2003-2008) [Acura TSX]' started by AccordMavman, Friday 26th Sep, 2014.

  1. AccordMavman Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom James Cheshire
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    Hey everyone,
    Well, the 2nd week of ownership has ended a bit differently to the first! I'll keep it brief - my timing chain has been condemned and my water pump is leaking! :Frown::SOS:The guy who does the more complex work on her for me suspected the chain after an inspection yesterday, Honda (Holdcroft) have confirmed it today and have given me a lovely quote for £1k! And even more predictably, the selling dealer is giving me a load of non committal hot air. You couldn't write it! Yes, I should have picked up on it when I looked at it, but it certainly wasn't obvious and from his reaction today, the dealer wouldn't have done anything about it even if I had. So, now the fun starts. Clearly I won't be getting Honda to do the work but it will have to be done before my engine lunches itself. I take it I would have to use OEM parts for such critical components? Any tips/advice to keep the cost as low as possible would be gratefully received...thanks!!
     
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  2. ArcticFire-Account Closed Banned Getting Started

    Scotland Graham Scotland
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    Does seem steep, perhaps one of the more experienced guys could give some advice?
     
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  3. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

    England Speedy Birmingham
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  4. Chunkylover53 Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    He has a diesel bud

    Also @AccordMavman - did you get the car from a Honda dealership or just a standard garage? Surely there's some sort of used car warranty in place?
     
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  5. Duc de Pommfrit Moderator Staff Team

    United Kingdom Chester Northumberland
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    You bought from a dealer
    If you bought a used car from a dealer the law under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 says that the car should be:

    • of satisfactory quality
    • fit for its intended purpose or a purpose that you made known to the dealer
    • as described.
    If the car turns out to be faulty, you may be able to get a refund, arepair or ask for a replacement.
     
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  6. ArcticFire-Account Closed Banned Getting Started

    Scotland Graham Scotland
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    I would pursue the dealer. Worst case if all else fails then if you used your credit card for any part of the purchase to at least the value of £100 (I think) then you've got Section 75 to call upon. If not then if the dealer refuses to fix this then try and get this in writing for evidence and then get HH to sort it then raise a small claim through the courts for the value. Doesn't cost much and normally reasonably quick.

    But I would exhaust all options with the dealer first.
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    Oh, small claim against the dealer and not HH
     
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  7. DeviateDefiant Co-Founder Staff Team

    United Kingdom Leo Northants
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    Throw the book at the dealer, the law has you completely covered here. I agree with @ArcticFire's view completely, get the work done and bill the dealer through the small claims court, any judge will realise you couldn't just not drive the car while waiting for the outcome of legal proceedings - you will recover the costs, also using a main dealer in this scenario is advisable because it adds an air of credibility. That said, the threat of the legal proceedings alone might change the original dealers mind.

    For the record, you can find a wealth of information on the site about the I-CTDI timing chain issues for some further insight into options :Smile:
     
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  8. AccordMavman Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom James Cheshire
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    It was a small independent dealer and a 3 month warranty has been provided. The chain is covered under the policy (although I'm not sure if all the accompanying tensioners etc are, I need to check) however what the dealer said was that because it's hasn't actually broken, or is not deemed by them to be on the verge of imminent failure, the warranty company are unlikely to pay up. I've offered to get a cheaper quote from my regular mechanic which he's accepted and I will send this across ASAP but he's already made it pretty clear to me what the outcome is likely to be. I get that it's 7 yrs old with a few miles up but it's still not acceptable... Cheers for your response...
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    Hi

    This is great, exactly the type of phrases I will inevitably need to quote in future emails - thank you...:Smile:
     
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  9. Chunkylover53 Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    For an issue like this I would really say it in person or over the phone. By all means email the dealer after the conversation to confirm everything thus keeping it all recorded too. If you have a smartphone, download a call recording app too for further evidence if required.
     
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  10. Duc de Pommfrit Moderator Staff Team

    United Kingdom Chester Northumberland
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    @AccordMavman I once had a problem with a Mazda 3 which was faulty, Garage said no, stood my ground and got all the faults sorted.
     
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  11. Nels Moderator Staff Team

    Keeping a thorough, comprehensive evidence file is essential. It shows the dealer you mean business.
    My only other advice is to be assertive, (not aggressive) polite and stand your ground.
     
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  12. Nighthawk Guest

    United Kingdom Richard Milton Keynes
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    I am going to slightly and respectfully disagree with a comment made above about this situation.

    Keep a WRITTEN record of everything is my advice, I agree fully with @Nels . Do not record a phone conversation without telling the other party, which you are legally required to do anyway if it has been recorded with the aim of being used as evidence within legal proceedings, it will make you appear sneaky and sly to a court. A small claims court will only care about evidence that you can produce to them which is unequivocal. Whilst I agree it is good to speak in person or over the phone, that then falls down to one word against another in worse case. You WILL end up arguing over "He said this, I said this", Being able to keep a record of your communication is essential. Speak clearly, confidentely, remain factual and to the point, no beating around the bush as such. You can say, I bought the car at this place, date and time. "As the court plainly see, your honour, this falls well within the act of (whatever name and year it is), I have informed him of the act he is obliged to work under, he has ignored it - here is the evidence showing this. (On this note, check every sentence of the documentation he gave you, if it mentions that he has to work/obliged under that act, which it should somewhere, then he has dug himself a really really big hole. I believe it is the same if he is a legally registered dealer as they have to follow the acts to become registered - not 100% sure about this specific point though). I told him this is the problem, confirmed by a dealer - here is the evidence. On this date, at this time, I sent him this message, it took 4 days for him to reply - here is the evidence. Since the problem, I have contacted him x number of times - here is the evidence" etc etc. Every single interaction you hold with him, record, preserve it and be prepared to present it. If you havent recorded anything yet, do it now before you forget dates and times. Oh, a hint, make an appointment with citizens advice, firstly cause this is a civil issue, but mainly because then you can record the fact that you have sort proper advice and can evidence that also. Now it becomes a game, get yourself as armed as you can....I would also call the warranty company, tell them that a Honda dealer has confirmed the chain is on the way out, and that its cheaper for the warranty company to replace the chain now which is failing rather than replace the entire engine which should also be covered in a months time. (BTW, is the name of the warranty company AutoGroup? If so, they are pretty good and reasonable - got a brake caliper which was intermittently siezing on a friends S60 volvo replaced last week)

    He won't be anywhere near as prepared, small businesses are horrific at keeping records, especially small one man shows and if you can go in there, put your case forward, with all the information at hand, easily accessible, with confidence about what you have done thus far, you show the court that you know your stuff, the courts will side with you and you stand a better chance of winning. Nothing worse than saying - "Umm, I think it was last Tuesday, no no, might have been Wednesday afternoon...... yeah I think it was then". "Your honour, tuesday morning 23rd September, at 945 am, this was what happened, here is the evidence". It is also quite amusing watching the dealers squirm:Rolf:

    On a slight side note, court costs are paid by the losing side and civil courts work off what is called "balance of probabilities" which means that if there is more than a 50% chance you are right, you win, if there is a50% chance the dealer is right, you lose. With all the evidence gathered correctly and professionally, it will be really easy to tip the scale in your favour. Be smart, be clever, document everything, stay above board, be truthful and completely honest and you will be just fine.

    Trust me
     
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  13. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

    England Speedy Birmingham
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  14. ArcticFire-Account Closed Banned Getting Started

    Scotland Graham Scotland
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    I'm not sure about English law but I'm sure the liability of costs if you lose can be placed on you depending on the value of claim, that's all the legal costs if solicitors are used etc. It goes from zero to something like half and then all but I think that's when it over £5k.

    It will all be in the court site. Once thing I do remember hearing is that Magistrates/Judges really don't like it when people fill out a claim form but then send it to the company as a threat before officially submitting it.

    I've never had to use the courts outside of work, most recent closest case was an air freshener damaging my dash. They paid up the day before I was about to submit the form to the courts.

    Good luck, please keep us informed.
     
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  15. AccordMavman Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom James Cheshire
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    35
    I did use my credit card for the £200 deposit I put down to secure it, so hopefully section 75 will be able to help. I used to work in the murky world of banking a while back so have some knowledge of disputes, but by no means expert or up to date! How helpful the credit card provider will be remains to be seen! And thanks for your advice re the law and court process. While it would be tempting to wave the claim form in front of the dealer before submission, I certainly won't now I know this.:Wink:
    I will certainly keep you all informed, there will no doubt be much more to tell before its resolved...:Frown: Thanks for your response...:Smile:
     
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  16. ArcticFire-Account Closed Banned Getting Started

    Scotland Graham Scotland
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    That's good news, gives you some extra options. Just to double check, you've definitely got proof of your complaint to the garage in writing? Just in case they wait until after the three months and then claim they know nothing and now the warranty had expired etc.
     
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  17. AccordMavman Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom James Cheshire
    123
    35
    Thanks for all this.:Smile: In the light of what you've said, I've re-read the warranty booklet and the 1st clause of the terms and conditions is as follows:
    You must take all reasonable steps to avoid damage to your vehicle or components. This guarantee will not cover damage caused by continued use after a fault occurs. This would seem to contradict what the dealer said to me yesterday about a covered component failing or being on the verge of imminent failure. A fault has been identified by 2 separate parties, so surely I would effectively be breaking the terms & conditions of the warranty by continued use of the car??!!
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    Great advice - I will do - thank you!..:Smile:
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    I haven't put it in writing yet, as the fault was only confirmed yesterday and I thought it was best to call in the first instance, to see what the initial response would be. I personally feel it's best to call to start off with. However, I absolutely will be putting it in writing formally when I email across a copy of the quotation for the repairs to him. Unless you think I should be sending 2 separate emails for this? Would appreciate your advice on this - thanks..:Smile:
     
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  18. AccordMavman Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom James Cheshire
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    35
    This is brilliant - thank you for so much comprehensive & detailed advice. I will record details of yesterday's initial conversation with him right now and make a note of any other future conversations, however it seems to be best done by email from now on on the basis of what you've said. I will call citizen's advice on Monday. And to answer your
    question re the warranty company, they're called Driveaway motoring services and their parent company is based in Sheffield. They are regulated by the FSA too so this may help a little.
    One other thing that I've been thinking on is where I stand with who does the repair. I'm sure that the dealer told me that if any repairs were required within the 3 month warranty period, these could be completed by a garage local to me. However, he was suggesting on the phone yesterday I may have to take it back to him. On this, the warranty booklet states that:
    You will need to take your vehicle to a repairer. The administrator has a nationwide network of nominated repairers who are familiar with the administrator's claims and billing procedures. The administrator shall recommend these repairers wherever possible. If a suitable nominated repairer cannot be located the administrator will agree a suitable local alternative with you.
    I would interpret this as saying that I could get it done locally to me. Apart from the fact that the dealer is 2 hours away from me, I have no faith whatsoever in the required work being carried out correctly by or on behalf of the dealer himself. My reason for saying this is that the garage he used to service the car just before I bought it overfilled the engine with oil (not by a lot but it was still over the max mark), completely missed that the nut & bolt holding the nearside front strut to the lower suspension arm was almost completely detached, the pressure of all 4 tyres was around 30% lower than it should have been and 3 bulbs were out. I think this is a fairly clear indicator of their attention to detail, so clearly I don't want them going anywhere near it again! Essentially, I only want the work done by my local mechanic, who I trust implicitly, or Honda themselves. Would welcome your input on this.
    Thanks again, all very much appreciated..:Smile::Smile:
     
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  19. ArcticFire-Account Closed Banned Getting Started

    Scotland Graham Scotland
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    I can't see any problem with just one email covering everything, so long as it documents the problem.

    Just wondering but can you not contact the warranty company directly on the basis that the garage isn't being cooperative?
     
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  20. Nighthawk Guest

    United Kingdom Richard Milton Keynes
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    When I helped my friend complete their warranty claim, it was literally, take the car to a VAT registered garage of our choice (used a local one a few miles away), they checked and quote the work. They then contacted Autogroup, told them it was an intermittent siezing brake caliper, told them the costs etc and Autogroup then authorised them to change it. The car was back the next day, new caliper, new discs and pads (which had been cooked) and a new brake hose (outer rubber sleeve had partially melted due to heat). On your warranty form, you should have, somewhere on there, a labour cost rate. This is the maximum that they are prepared to pay a mechanic per hour to work on your car. When I tried to get the car past Volvo, they wouldn't touch it as they charged more than £60 an hour which was what the max on my friends warranty. Call Honda, call your local mechanic, call the warranty company, ask them if honour the warranty and lay it on thick with the warranty people.

    I would definetely try to take it down the warranty claim side. All my advice above in my previous post was just in worse case scenario, and is something in which I do have a fair bit of experience in and I felt its important you have that information in the back of your head so if the warranty side doesnt come through, then you don't have to back peddle and try to remember what may and may not have happened. If you do it now, you have what you need, and if you don't need it, which I hope you won't, then great, but if you do, at least you have it all pre prepared. The warranty should cover "mechanical failure" and non wear and tear items. It was my understanding that the I-CDTI chain was not a wear and tear item, but I guess I am wrong with this, I am sure others here will be able to correct me. @DeviateDefiant , @Ichiban, @SpeedyGee

    Best of luck mate, keep us all informed
     
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