Introductions New member from Austria

Discussion in 'Introduce Yourself' started by michael01, Sunday 27th May, 2012.

  1. michael01 Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Hello!

    I own a Honda Civic 2.2 I-CTDI at the moment, model year 2007, the version with DPF that was sold only in mainland europe. At the moment, my car is slightly tuned to about 160 BHP (from 138 BHP stock), with the EGR rate reduced (not fully deleted, it still works at idle, but closes as soon as power is applied) which seems to be a good compromise to me and it works flawlessly together with the DPF (intervalls between regenerations almost doubled, which indicates that less soot is emmitted, this also corresponds well to the observations made in freezing weather when the EGR is disabled in stock condition in this car).

    Because of the DPF and other possible issues i did not want to go all the way to 180-190 BHP, i just wanted to remove the sometimes restrictive feeling of the stock map, which seemingly got worse after an ECU update (subjective comparison!). Because a downgrade was not possible, i went for the "soft" tuning option.
    I did not want to go for the known full EGR delete solution, because it seems to have issues with excessive smoke, which could be a show stopper for the DPF.

    Apart from that, i have also fitted a Webasto parking heater, mainly to preheat the engine in winter and of course also defrost the windscreen. I have a special setup with a switch which disables the heater fan when i only want to preheat the engine, e.g. when windscreen ICE is no issue. This saves fuel and also reduces battery wear. I also installed an LCD oil temperature gauge (custom programmed bar graph) to make sure the engine is fully warmed up before pushing it.

    Oil Temp 2. Oil Temp 1.

    I have also access to an HDS and record logs (e.g. DPF regeneration) frequently. I can provide some of these if someone is interested (PDF printouts or original files).
     
  2. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    Hi Michael,

    Welcome to AOC and thanks for your intro :Hey:. I have always maintained the full ERG delete was a bad move but people in the UK will have you know otherwise.:Aghast:

    I would very interested in the parking heater install on your car , did you fit to yourself?
     
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  3. michael01 Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    My parking heater was installed by a local Webasto dealer. Because of the limited space under the hood, the installation is rather complicated, and takes about a full working day (7-8 hours, and that assumes a mechanic who does this every day). The heater itself is fitted just right (looking from the front) and behind of the radiator, just above the floor cover. It is integrated "inline" in the small coolant circuit and takes water coming from the engine block with an electric pump, heat it up, pumps it through the cabin heat exchanger, from there the still warm coolant goes back into the engine block.

    It is possible to keep the heater running after engine start, to speed up engine/cabin warmup. I use an aftermarket GSM module from Danhag (W-Bus version) to control the heater - the original Webasto GSM unit was too expensive for me and also had some drawbacks which i could not accept for the premium price. The Danhang module for example does not actually take the call, it only checks if the number of the dialler is authorized, and if it is, it disconnects the call with a busy tone (no telephone costs even abroad!) and then switches the heater on or off. I can check the current status (on/off, time remaining) vie SMS, and i can set the module up via SMS to switch the heater on for a specific amount of time.

    Ususally, with the car parked outside, i will call the GSM module some 20-30 minutes before i want to start the car. This is sufficient to get the coolant to about 50-55°C with the heater fan on in moderatly cold weather (around freezing), and have the cabin warmed up a bit. With the heater fan off, the engine would be between 60-70°C then (coolant), the oil temperature will still be below registering (<40°C on my gauge), but start rising after a minute or two of driving. When the car is parked in the garage, i will start the heater immediately before leaving, giving it just enough time tu run up to full power, which takes about 30-40 seconds. Any longer causes too much smell even with the garage door open, not to mind possible CO poisoning. Engine warmup will then be about as quick as in summer, and warm air is available after 2-3 minutes.

    Melting snow and ICE from the windscreen needs heating times of 30 minutes or more, especially if it is below -10°C. On one occasion, i had the heater running for 50 minutes and still got only a part of the windscreen free of ICE. But this is mainly to blame on the small heater outlets in the Civic, which cover only about 1/3 rd of the windscreen. Also, a stiff wind was blowing at the windscreen, which probably took most of the heat away.

    Fuel burn is about 0.5 - 0.6 liters per hour at full load, and 0.25 at part load (this is used when the coolant temperature is above 85°C as measured by the built in sensor). If i use the heater strictly to preheat the engine (max. 20 minutes), and / or as warmup aid, the total impact on fuel consumption is negligible. Maybee it adds 0.2 - 0.3 L/100 km if used excessively, but most of the fuel burn seems to be compensated by the warm engine. The battery did not cause any issues so far, there should be an automatic undervolt shutoff.

    Price of installation (including IPCU module3 for fan control and switch for fan on/off) and the heater (Thermo Top Evo Diesel 4 kw) itself was 1220 Euro, the GSM module cost an additional 220 Euro. For the Civic, the 4 kw heater is sufficient, for the Accord you would probably need the bigger 5 kw one (200 Euros more). If you fit it yourself, you can save 400-500 Euros. I had a fixed price install, which turned out to be wise because the installation took longer than expected.

    I can take some pictures of the installation if you like.


    Regarding the EGR delete: I think the only proper way would be to find out on which parameters Honda does base the "winter delete" (EGR duty cycle at minimum = 4.7% all the time). I guess it is mainly based on intake air temperature at the MAF (IAT 1), although i do not have data to confirm this. If you could find the corresponding map(s) and adjust them to keep the EGR closed in higher temperatures, you should not need to fiddle around with other parameters, the Honda mapping would take care of it. My "delete" closely replicates the winter behaviour, but only when power is applied (the slightest touch on the pedal is enough).

    I tried using a blanking plate once together with my "delete", and could get away with it as long as i kept driving, but i got an error "EGR flow insufficient" when i stopped and idled the engine for more then 12 seconds. I guess the problem with the full delete is not keeping the valve closed, but the way this is achieved via the maps. Perhaps some things are adjusted in an attempt to get rid of the EGR flow error, which in turn cause problems with setting the correct amount of boost or the right position of the swirl flaps. Excessive smoke is not what i would expect from an EGR delete, if this was the norm, the winter shutoff would cause enormous problems with the DPF. It must be a problem with the mapping, possibly either restricting mass air flow by some other means than EGR (lower turbo boost, swirl valve closed further, or intake shutter valve (does the non DPF I-CTDI have one?)) to keep the ECU happy, or playing some strange things with the fueling. Did you have a look at the advertised "full delete" yet (with HDS or in WinOLS), to see if it is doing strange things?

    Coolant and oil temperatures are about the same as stock in my car, EGTs also are in the same ballpark. Engine warmup seems to take slightly (about a minute or two) longer with the EGR off, but this is hard to determine without testing both maps under the same conditions. Throttle response is sharper from part to full load, unchanged from idle, because there the EGR is still open. The main purpose of extending regeneration intervalls is achieved, and i can live with it being still open at idle.
     
    Ichiban likes this.
  4. Nikonandmac Senior Member ★ ★ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Hi Michael, Wie Geht's? You obviously seriously enjoy your driving and for a 5 year old vehicle she looks immaculate. Love the oil temp gauge. Welcome to the club.
     
  5. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    yeah I forgot to ask that how did you rig up the oil temperature gauge. You should give some tuning classes, you have the talent and you are not talking through your backside. Thank god for some valuable and correct tuning parameters people like you are in dwindling by the minute.


    You can give some training to a few file uploaded in the UK :Whistle: I know the ideal candidate too he will soon put it in pipe and smoke when you have finished with him.
     
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  6. michael01 Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Danke, mir geht es gut (Thank you, i'm fine!)! After five years of ownership, it is now clear for me that i will keep the vehicle as long as possible. In Austria, especially in my region, this car is very rare, and stands out of the crowd - something that is not easy to achieve in this price range.

    I have installed a VDO 1/8" 27 NPTF oil temperature sensor in the oil drain screw, which was drilled through in the middle an got a thread cut in for the sensor. This was, to my knowledge, the only possible and safe option. There was no temperature sensor which could take the specified tightening torque in the reqired dimension.

    The only other option would have been a dipstick sensor (concerns how to check oil level with this and what happens in case the sensor breaks loose), or drilling a hole in the oil pan for the sensor (need to remove oil pan and bad in case you need warranty).

    The sensor itself is a little bit longer then the original Honda drain plug i used, and therefore has direct contact to the oil. Compared to the values available with the HDS, it is fairly accurate in the low range (40-60°C) then stays about 5-10°C behind (e.g. 70°C on my gauge is about 80°C as per HDS). I guess this is mainly due to the sensor placement, mine is at the lowest point in the oil pan, the Honda sensor i think is integrated in the oil level sensor, which is higher up in the oil pan.

    Normal reading is 70-75°C (80-85°C HDS) under standard weather conditions (15°C), with steady driving. If you push it a little, it goes up to 80°C, and further if you continue to drive spirited for some time. In summer, 80-85°C are normal, and on the German autobahn i get around 90°C on unrestricted stretches (gauge reading, do not have HDS data yet). The highest i ever got was 100°C on a mountain road, where i wanted to try and see how high it could possibly get with any sort of driving possible on a public road. In Winter, 65°C are the norm once it is below freezing, this should be about 75°C HDS reading. When the water gauge indicated full operating temperature (in fact, i lies a bit in the Civic, showing normal temp at only 60°C water temperature), the oil is only at 40°C. I do not exceed 2000 RPM or 1/4 of available power below 60°C, then stay below 2500 RPM or 1/3rd power until 70°C (65°C in winter, if no further rise can be seen) are reached.

    Windchill should not be a factor in the Civic with this sensor placement, because the underside is covered, and the oil drain plug faces readwards, therefore does not get any direct wind.

    The gauge itself consists of a processor module which is placed behind der gearstick in my case, a 60 cm connection cable to the display and the display itself. The module needs +12V power and ground (taken from the cigarette lighter), and a single cable coming from the sensor. In my configuration, it is programmed to show bars in the first and numbers in the second row, to represent the look of the instantaneous MPG gauge in the dashboard display. It adds a block of bars for each 5°C of temperature, calibrated to match the scale. Should it ever go above 115°C (end of scale), it will change to text mode (Oeltemperatur: 120°C).

    The installation was done by a Honda dealer at a scheduled service inspection, and took about an hour extra. The mounting plate for the display is some kind of wood, colored in black. I can still close the flap of the compartment where it is installed, and restore the unmodified look. I usually close it when parked outside to avoid unnecessary sunlight exposure of the LCD. The display can be dimmed with a potentiometer (installed in the left blind cap for the seat heaters whcih i do not have) - which is good for night driving as it would be to bright otherwise.

    The display cost 120 Euros from a one man firm from Germany (AC-LCD), programmed to my specifications. The sensor cost 20 Euros i think. Of course, an analogue instrument would have cost half of this, or even less, but you never know how accurate these are (expect original VDO, which do not match well with the futuristic look of the car). Some are more show and shine.

    The module could be reprogrammed or changed to add further sensors, e.g. EGT or boost. You can also use a four row LCD, if you need to display more values.
     
  7. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    Absolutely brilliant explanation, I think the I-CTDI is a very efficient engine and is one of the reasons why it takes ages to warm up the heater matrix. Michael do you have your own genuine HDS or a cloned one?

    I am still waiting to buy the MVCI,currently the price is too high and waiting for it to drop.
     
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  8. michael01 Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Yes, the Honda engine is very efficient, and it also has a relatively large quantity of oil, compared to other diesels in the same power range. The good thing is that it has plenty of thermal reserves here, you have to really drive like mad to get 100°C oil temperature.

    I got my HDS from a german Honda forum member, he bought it from Ebay so it is probably a clone. I got it together with a used Dell D600 series notebook for a good price, and as i do not intend to use it for any critical stuff like reflashing or immobilizer it should be ok.

    It runs very stable so far, both when connected to the PC and in standalone Drive recorder mode. No disconnects or any other strange things. I can record up to 10 minutes at once, and there is enough memory for a second 10 minute recording. I did not yet test if a third 10 minute recording is possible. Downloading the recordings take a while. I deliberately looked for a system that had actually been used by someone, to avoid getting one of the clones which do not work. The user could provide evidence that he really used it, he even sent me some recordings made with it. There are so many intefaces on Ebay, and you never know what you get.

    Are there any things which i should better not touch with a clone except reflashing or immobilizer?

    Is it even possible for a private person to buy a real HDS from Honda? What would be the price? Any chance that the tablet testers used before the MVCI will end up in sale, or are they given back to Honda? Apart from being necessary for the new Hondas, are there any new features provided by the MVCI for the older cars, which are not present in the HDS versions for the HIM?
     
  9. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    I have got the real HIM , you can buy it if you have a Honda account through that you can get the updated HDS CD's for free. The subscription is around 1000 euro's a year. I bought my HDS a few year go via a few channels and it was around 1700 quid.

    I have used the HIM to record a very poor DPF delete done by a local file uploaded but calls himself a remapper extraordinaire but he his map :Nuked: the cars eventually.The HDS data capture is so valuable it showed me all his mistakes showed to a professional remapper and he laughed his head off .

    As for Honda tablet it is now showing it age and it not a very reliable piece of hardware, all Honda dealers have maintenance contracts with manufacturer and it nearly every month its going in for repairs. Personally without that maintenance contract the tablet is no good for us, that why you find dealer having multiple HIM kits.
    So if you see a tablet going cheap leave its not worth it.

    The genuine MVCI is around £5000 but they want to sell their Panasonic hardtop notebook as standard which I don't want I will use a desktop and use the wireless capabilities to the maximum. The MVCI is OBD 3 capable and will interrogate the new Civic other than that the new features are excellent and way better than the older kits.
     
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  10. michael01 Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Just out of interest: Does anyone know the limit for DPF differential pressure? I get up to 370 mbar at 4000 RPM before regeneration (150 mbar afterwards), which seems rather high to me.
     
  11. Doc Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    Matt Peterborough
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    Michael welcome along. Really liking your insight on the EGR operation and your remap. Sounds like you have a very user friendly set up going there and a workable solution for a permanent delete.
     
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  12. michael01 Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    We are still in the testing phase, to see if we can get a full delete (no EGR operation at all and nor error codes even if the EGR is blanked physically, e.g. if it is leaking and the owners does not want to replace it) without any other drawbacks.

    So far, we are doing this using a standard software - which seems to be working at the first look (150 km test with multiple start/stops). However, for some reason the ECT (coolant temperature) 2 sensor reads -40°C since this complete delete software is installed. There is no error code, but i do not seem to get DPF regeneration now. I am currently at 8.7g of soot, and i suspect that the false ECT 2 reading does inhibit regeneration. Wheter it comes on once reaching the warning level is unknown, but it seems that i will have to go back to the former software to avoid further trouble. I have about 100-130 km until the warning will come on at 11g, and i would not like to push it that far.

    The soot loading rate is about the same as with the partial delete, therefore there seem to be no real gains by fully deleting it other than a slighly sharper throttle response, unless you want to fix a leaking valve with a blanking plate.
     
  13. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    Michaels approach is the best method of using the swirl flap to it maximum,the Yorkshire file uploader \ so called map alterer where asked this same question on some all the major Honda forum and EVER single answer was different. :Foolish:

    Common sense is not common after all is it, it must be a Halifax and Leeds thing, outside this area the entire world everyone has figured it.:Sobbing: Must be bad for business.
     
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  14. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    For your Civic or all I-CTDI? how are your measuring this pressure and what altitude are you when you are reading this?
     
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  15. Doc Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    Matt Peterborough
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    I've never liked the thought of the EGR valve recirculating exhaust gasses back into the combustion.

    I'm not sure if it's just a simple mentality or a lack of knowledge but I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to program the EGR valve out of a standard map and let it run how it wants to with no side effects. It is already capable of running with it closed under certain circumstances anyway on the original map. So I don't understand why others who have managed to delete it out have side effects like excessive smoke if they're running their maps within the parameters Honda set out.

    Think I need to learn more about how the EGR system works on a Honda and how it affects the swirl so I can decide if I'm happy to let someone map mine out.
     
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  16. michael01 Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Currently, we have the swirl valve working like it does in stock conditions. The I-CTDI was designed to use the swirl valve at low RPM/low load to achieve better mixing of fuel and air in the combustion chamber. I think the smoke problem with the "known" delete might be caused by either removing the swirl function completely or altering it in a not so favourable way.

    I think the only way to delete it properly is to just remove the EGR function, and not to play around with the swirl valve (this keeps operating in freezing weather where the EGR is off even with a stock map!) or the ISV (DPF cars only, this is just used to restrict airflow and increase EGT for DPF regeneration!). Maybee the boost pressure control could be fine tuned to take care of the increased exhaust mass flow (all exhaust gases go through the turbo, therefore boost will be higher at part load for a given VNT-vane position) at part load, to avoid getting unnecessary high part load boost values. This could reduce back pressure a bit and increase fuel economy, but if you go too far you will produce more soot (less air available with lower boost) and throttle response will suffer.

    I have checked the vaccuum line to the EGR with a vaccuum gauge, which indicated zero vaccuum once the engine RPM is increased, and only -0.1 bar at idle, which is in fact not enough to really open the EGR valve. If someone was ever to check EGR function, he would see that it appears to be "slightly" working, even if it is physically blanked with a metal plate. The OBD-Test for EGR shows "passed", even when blanked, and there is not limp mode, check engine light or stored fault.

    Now i have to wait if DPF regeneration kicks in, we have used an old software version which might allow a higher soot load in the DPF. According to Honda Austria, the threshold for regeneration was lowered with updates later to better accommodate the DPF for short runs and city driving, if i remember it correctly it would regnerate at about 18 grams, show the first warning at 30g (or 20g, i do not rember that part exactly) and the second warning together with limp mode at 40g (or 30g). Later the threshold was lowered to "7-8g" according to the technician, and the minimum engine temperature for the start of regeneration was lowered to 50°C to allow an early start for short trips. This gives some room for aborted or partially sucessfull regenerations, which was not really there before. In Austria, the Civic was delivered with DPF from 2007 onwards, and there were some problems wih clogged DPFs in the beginning.

    As soon as the DPF regeneration is confirmed working, the stock software with EGR delete will be modified to give me 160-170 BHP, to see if the effects of the EGR delete can be combined with a moderate power increase without getting DPF regeneration problems. Tuning will likely increase soot emissions, once you use the increased power. Deleting the EGR should reduce soot emissions at part load, therefore you could compensate for the increased soot emissions at high/full load to some extent, if you keep your driving reasonable and do not use full power all the time. It was that way with my first partial EGR delete.



    For the DPF differential pressure: This is the value reported by the HDS (DPF Differential Pressure, measured in kPA (i mentioned it here in mbar, 1 kPA = 10 mbar), at 950 mbar ambient pressure and about 25°C IAT 1, at full throttle and 4000 RPM, with above 8g of soot in the DPF. With DPF empty it is 150-170 mbar under comparable conditions. A DPF cleaning firm specifies 11 mbar at 276 cubic meters of airflow per hour, a quick extrapolation from my data at a comparable airflow rate gives me around 40 mbar with the DPF empty at that point. Possibly within limits, but far from perfect.
     
  17. MickyB Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    Hi and welcome Michael. Good to see we are getting international members on board. Please pass this site onto your friends we are always looking to expand.