Engine & Gearbox Not Starting when warm...Update: May not be fuel pressure!

Discussion in '7th Generation (2003-2008) [Acura TSX]' started by nauest, Wednesday 25th Mar, 2015.

  1. nauest Premium Member Club Supporter

    Netherlands Ned Texel
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    So my relationship with my new accord has been mixed, but I think its just a great car with a bad engine, not sure I can cope anymore! Here is my latest problem:

    Basically, it simply won't start when warm, cranks till the battery goes flat. Cool it, jump it and it will go. Would occasionally hiccup before but now its full on hopeless when its been run.

    I think I have read this is due to low fuel rail pressure? Still interested to know what people think, but I don't think the i - ctdi is for me, just too many problems and on a low milage engine.

    **Edit: I wrote that following while annoyed at my dead battery, I am not getting that drastic yet!***
     
    Last edited: Sunday 29th Mar, 2015
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  2. Zebster Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    It does sound exactly like a symptom of the fuel rail failing to reach sufficient pressure (200 bar min.) under cranking. The common reasons for this are almost always either the fuel rail over-pressure relief valve leaking (very easy to check by simply removing the flexible black return pipe, plugging the loose end and then watching for any output from the rail spur whilst cranking) OR one or more of the injectors has developed an excessive fuel leak-off (return) issue - this is a little harder to check, as the return pipework needs to be re-routed using something like this...

    Having owned mine for 7 years/90k miles I'd have to defend the design. the faults are generally easy to diagnose and repair if you understand the Bosch common rail system (which wasn't a new thing on the I-CTDI). But I do admit that access to lots of technical literature helps!
     
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  3. nauest Premium Member Club Supporter

    Netherlands Ned Texel
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    I may be jumping to conclusions, was a little frustrated when I wrote that!

    I will check the overpressure valve ASAP. Cheers for the Input.
     
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  4. Zebster Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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  5. nauest Premium Member Club Supporter

    Netherlands Ned Texel
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    Just found that myself, shame some of the pics are missing but will go for it anyway. Looks like a good guide and quite doable.
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    I think I was freaking out because read elsewhere of a garage replacing fuel pump and fuel rail before it got fixed, could have just have been this valve still and he wasted a few 1000!
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    Looks like the part is £102 from Ebay, genuine Bosch, not too bad. My Freak out may have been premature. I will update.
     
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  6. Zebster Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    I know, there's so much ignorance about this Bosch system! The fuel pumps are massively expensive (>£2k!) and rarely fail.

    Honda don't sell parts to repair the fuel pump or fuel rail, so instead sell you these complete (and very expensive) items. Much better to buy the parts direct from Bosch. Same goes for the fuel filter, incidentally.
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    If you lived a little nearer then I'd lend you a spare fuel rail I've got in the shed. But at least that valve is so easy to test (can be very tight to undo though).

    I hope it isn't an injector problem. They can be devils to remove.
     
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  7. nauest Premium Member Club Supporter

    Netherlands Ned Texel
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    Sometimes I am so glad that I am willing to go in and try and fix these problems myself, its amazing what a bit of shared knowledge and a greasy overall can save you! Have taken the engine cover off, can foresee a bit of a problem with getting a wrench in because of the positioning of the Power Steering pump, but will do the testing ASAP.

    Thanks for the offer :Smile:. I am a little out of the way down here!

    Also if I did replace the valve, how sensitive is the system to air, will it need a full bleed/re prime or will it be able to sort itself out?
     
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  8. Zebster Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    The Honda workshop manual suggests (from memory) that the system should be primed with the rubber bulb (under the cover with 2 bolts above the fuel filter) about 40 times! But simply cranking the engine over for an extended period will shift the air (the system is self-bleeding when running) but this isn't very kind to the starter motor - so do pump the bulb as much as possible, at least until your hand begins to hurt. It'll still take a while to fire up and will run a bit rough until all the air has passed through, but it will all sort itself out.
     
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  9. Nels Moderator Staff Team

    Ned, I believe the best thing to do is get the fault code(s) at a Honda dealer. It will point you in the right direction.
    The management system on your car will kick in and supress other units. e.g. fuel pump, cam sensor etc, to protect the engine.
    If you don't have access to the root cause, you can end up spending money replacing healthy parts.

    I had a leaky injector. At first glance it appeared like a fuel pressure problem. Similar issue with starting to you. I changed the injector and she was back to full working order immediately. The injectors are made by Bosch. I will say no more about that.

    Get the code read so you know what's really wrong.

    As for the rest I-CTDI, that was the only issue I had in 10 years of ownership. A problem with a German part!
     
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  10. Zebster Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    Actually, that almost certainly WAS a fuel pressure problem! The leaking injector was returning fuel to the tank faster than the fuel pump could pressurise the rail at cranking speed. And the ECU will not allow the injectors to function unless a minimum rail pressure is achieved.

    Nobody was suggesting replacing parts without proper diagnosis.

    You don't need to visit a Honda dealer to have powertrain fault codes read and accurately diagnosed. The OP has not mentioned that he has a warning light on.
     
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  11. Nels Moderator Staff Team

    Yup, there are other ways of diagnosing. I was merely trying to suggest a route he may use and also what others should do, when they have a problem that is not obvious to diagnose. The proper Honda code readers will give you the whole story.
    For me, it was an intermittent problem and I don't think I had a warning light, If there was, it wasn't on for long. However, the code was in the system. Once read, one injector was replaced and problem fixed. The low pressure issue that appeared to be the problem on my car was not the cause, just a symptom. It was the system shutting down/off to protect the engine from further harm.
     
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  12. Zebster Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    I own a Honda Interface Module and have Honda Diagnostic System software. It is not able to distinguish between a leaking rail valve or an injector with excessive leak-off, as these have the same symptoms (they would, because both these faults return too much fuel back to the tank). Admittedly it is able to independently test the fuel pump pressure control solenoid.

    The real danger of taking such an old diesel model to a Honda dealer is that Honda will not normally sell you the individual components necessary to repair either the fuel rail (e.g. the pressure relief valve) or the fuel pump (e.g. the pressure control solenoid) so will instead get you to but the complete fuel rail or fuel pump. And these will cost you around the value of the car (possibly double the value of the car in the case of the fuel pump). Hence my suggestion of buying these parts from a Bosch outlet (who are at least competitive and will sometimes tolerate haggling).

    Please don't think that I'm anti-Honda dealers. But these pre-facelift models are now old cars (bangers, really) and barely worth taking to a Honda dealer.
     
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  13. nauest Premium Member Club Supporter

    Netherlands Ned Texel
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    Its a nice banger though :Smile:

    I agree, any diagnosis they provide that isn't injectors will require replacement of whole components which is thoroughly not viable on my car. Changing the Relief valve or the Injectors on their own is viable, I will work through as much diagnostics as possible here first. I do like to do the work myself too, much more satisfying.

    Although it would be nice to know what error codes I am getting (If any) Would Honda do that for free? Seems ambitious. I would love to support Honda but I a not yet in a position to do that!


    So far I was unable to produce leakage from the relief valve while cranking. However the Car was also cold and started immediately, I also tried heating the fuel rail but that made no difference. I will try this again after a long drive.

    DSC_1695.JPG
     
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  14. nauest Premium Member Club Supporter

    Netherlands Ned Texel
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    If that doesn't show anything I will see about borrowing a leak off kit and check the injectors.
     
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  15. Zebster Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    You've not ever mentioned having a warning light (MIL/EML/engine symbol) on, so I was assuming that it wasn't on! If it is on then Nels was right about reading the ECU Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs) to help pinpoint the problem, e.g. DTCs P1065 and P0087 are codes relating to low fuel pressure. But be careful, as this Bosch EDC16 ECU stores error codes indefinitely - if you find any stored codes they could well be old ones that are no longer valid. It's best to read the stored codes, make a written note of them, delete them all and then see which ones (if any) come back. But the dashboard MIL will come on to indicate a new stored code has occurred.

    Code readers are dirt cheap on eBay and will read all 'powertrain' codes (not necessarily VSA/ABS or 'bodywork' codes).
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    Or use the existing injector connectors with alternate tubing (3 of them will need an additional short section of tubing to be used as a blanking piece). That's what I did.

    There will be a flow present on all injectors. The 'trick' is to route all 4 into clear containers so you can assess the relative flow volumes. Run the engine long enough to get at least 100cc or so from the injector with the lowest flow - any that are significantly higher than the 'best/least' one should be considered to be excessive. You'll probably just get away with replacing the worst.
     
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  16. nauest Premium Member Club Supporter

    Netherlands Ned Texel
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    No, I don't have any warning lights, I wasn't sure how the Honda system works, I know my old Pug stored some codes without a warning light. It is also possible that the codes have been ignored in the past as I haven't had the car long.

    Would you get a warning light for a temporary loss of pressure during start up?

    I think I have an old OBDII reader somewhere that may work on the Honda.
     
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  17. Zebster Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    No, you wouldn't normally get a warning light during start-up, as the fuel pressure will normally be uncertain at this time. But excessive lost pressure during running will normally flag one or both of the DTCs I mentioned earlier.

    OBD2 is a standard, so your old reader should work OK. I expect you will find quite a few stored codes, but I don't suppose any will return after being deleted.
     
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  18. nauest Premium Member Club Supporter

    Netherlands Ned Texel
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    I was thinking about that, I may try testing each injector timed run, noting down the exact amount of diesel then trying the next. I could probably rig something up for that, I have some chemistry equiptment that would measure it well, but only 1! Then compare the values for all 4.

    I want to rule out the relief valve first though and it looks like the engine needs to have been run for a while for that, not sure why!
     
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  19. Zebster Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    The leak from a failing pressure relief valve is usually permanent, but is a worse problem when warm because the fuel is thinner and flows quicker through the leak. But I know someone who rigged up a catch can and went for a lengthy drive to be absolutely sure!

    There's as much chance of it being the injectors, to be honest.

    Can your OBD2 reader give real-time fuel pressure figures? Mine can, and it could be a useful diagnostic here.
     
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  20. nauest Premium Member Club Supporter

    Netherlands Ned Texel
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    Cool, I will see about the OBD. I would probably have to go second hand with an Injector. No point spending that much on this car.

    How bad is injector removal, what I have heard so far doesn't sound good, do you need to do any recoding with a new injector?

    Will rig up a leak off check soon and see how that looks.
     
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