Engine & Gearbox Rattling during acceleration

Discussion in '7th Generation (2003-2008) [Acura TSX]' started by Bear1, Tuesday 31st Mar, 2015.

  1. Bear1 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Ireland Kevin Galway
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    Hi everyone, first post here and it ain't a good one :Frown:
    I had the dreaded timing chain fault back in November which I then had replaced. 3 of the 4 injectors broke during the removal and the mechanic to keep costs down ordered 3 used injectors, two new chains, new oil/filter, drive shaft and something I can't remember.
    The moment I picked the car up I had a rattling noise during any sort of acceleration.
    If the car is idling then it is fine, no noise at all and also I think at high speeds (I can't be 100% on that) but from 2nd to 4th there is a very annoying rattle which I can't put mu finger on.
    I had it brought back to the mechanic who had said he had forgotten to encode the injectors. Didn't change anything.
    Another issue I've noticed is that when I'm driving at say 50kph and I'm in 3rd/4th gear then the car is slightly jerky but when I put my foot down it returns to normal.
    I brought the car to another mechanic yesterday and he cleaned out the inlet manifold as he said it was showing an error on the machine. Got it back and although the car seems a bit quicker the noise is still there!
    Does anyone have any idea what the hell it could be?? I'm going mad trying to figure it out.
    It's a 04 CDTI.
     
  2. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

    England Speedy Birmingham
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    Always difficult to diagnose a rattle over the internet.

    You need to somehow narrow it down to engine, transmission, suspension, steering or exhaust.

    So try things like dipping the clutch when you are hearing the noise , does the sound go away ?

    I'll let the diesel gurus chime in with further advice.
     
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  3. Bear1 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Ireland Kevin Galway
    67
    6
    The noise does go away as it is only present during acceleration. In 1st gear it isn't audible nor whilst idling. If I stay at a constant speed it doesn't do it either. Only if I put my foot down.
    For sure it isn't the suspension or steering. I'm ruling out the transmission as I believe the symptoms would be much more prevailent. So I'm sticking more with the engine or exhaust.
    With the exhaust the only thing that comes to me is the heat shield but I've no idea if this is touched during a timing chain repair and I would also imagine that the heat shield would rattle at any speed.
    Thanks though for the reply.
     
  4. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

    England Speedy Birmingham
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    Things can resonate at certain frequencies and not others.

    Since I've had my custom exhaust put on, under light acceleration in 2nd and 3rd I can hear something vibrating inside the drivers door. It doesn't resonate under any other circumstances.
     
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  5. Bear1 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Ireland Kevin Galway
    67
    6
    It just seems strange that it happened right after the timing chain repair. So I'm thinking something may not have been put back correctly.
     
  6. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

    England Speedy Birmingham
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    The may have left something loose or perhaps broken some clips somewhere.
     
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  7. Bear1 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Ireland Kevin Galway
    67
    6
    I really hope you are right :Smile:
    I've found another specialist not far from where I work so I'm going to try and get in there before the end of the day. Spent enough money trying to get to the bottom of it.
     
  8. Zebster Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    I'm guessing that those 3 used injectors weren't correctly coded to the ECU (it was pretty shoddy that this wasn't done at the time, btw)? Or maybe the used injectors were worn and the calibration code had become invalid - within a limited range the ECU will automatically compensate for differential injector deliveries and these correction values can be read via a Honda Diagnostic System (HDS) 'injector test' option, but maybe one of your injectors is out-of-range (possibly the remaining original?).

    Having personally replaced my own timing chains, I cannot think of anything that could be left loose without being really obvious (e.g. non-running or massive oil leakage).
     
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  9. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    When timing chains are replaced a few cars develop a whine which was not there so it could be that. That whine won't get worse or have any impact to the car,
     
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  10. Zebster Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    Off-topic, I know, but do you know WHY there's a whine after having new chains? My engine immediately developed a slight whine afterwards and I haven't got a clue why! I've discussed this with a Honda technician I know, but even he doesn't seem sure - could only suggest that the increased tension from the new-style (post-facelift) tensioners could be putting the vacuum pump shaft bearing under greater strain (but I think he was just speculating). I have heard this is very common.
     
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  11. Bear1 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Ireland Kevin Galway
    67
    6
    Yeah, mine also developed a whine after the change. Haven't a clue why.
    I also thought it could be the injectors, injector knock I think it's called. Hopefully tonight I will know a bit more.
    Thanks everyone for your input so far :Smile: I think we may actually get to the bottom of this.
     
  12. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    The reason for the whine is pretty simple due to EU pedestrian safety regulation and Honda 100% approach to do the right thing and not to compromise.

    Honda made this Observation way back as 2004

    High pitched whine audible from engine between 2000 and 3000 RPM when accelerating or decelerating.

    Explanation

    • To reduce overall engine noise and vibration, the Accord diesel engine is fitted with an oil pump/balancer assembly (as per i-VTEC engine).

    • The whining noise that can be heard at between 2-3000RPM is generated by the chain and balancer driven sprocket.

    32364_i-ctdi_balancer_noise.




    • In order to improve pedestrian safety, vehicle styling and reduce overall engine size and weight a chain drive system is used for the balancer shaft/oil pump assembly using the smallest possible dimension of driven sprocket.

    • Using a small diameter driven sprocket creates some noise as the chain impacts on several sprocket teeth at the same time during normal operation.

    • Extensive durability tests have been carried out by Honda and the noise generated has no negative effect and is not an indication of any wear taking place

    Final conclusion from Honda on this matter was

    The whining noise is an acceptable function of this engine and no repairs should be attempted to eradicate it.

    More discussion on this topic which was easily found by searching Engine & Gearbox - My Diesel sewing machine
     
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  13. Zebster Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    But I didn't replace the lower sprocket and the noise definitely wasn't there before.

    Thanks for the relevant link, I'll discuss it there.
     
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  14. Bear1 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Ireland Kevin Galway
    67
    6
    Hopefully I'll be able to provide some clarification tonight in case anyone else ever encounters this problem.
     
  15. tonygw Valued Contributor ★ ★ ★ ☆ ☆

    This is interesting about the whine noise. My 2.4 petrol makes a loud whine noise when started from cold and for at least 10 to 15 minutes of driving then goes away, in two years I have never got to the bottomw of it. could this be related?
     
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  16. Bear1 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Ireland Kevin Galway
    67
    6
    Just got back from another mechanic.
    We thought we were on to something when he lifted the car up and we saw that the CAT cover was rusted to bits and was making a rattling noise.
    So we had it removed and nicely enough the guy didn't charge for it.
    Car still bloody rattles though, I'm completely lost as to what else it could be. The mechanic said if it isn't cured then to leave it with him for longer.
    Fairly disappointed :Frown:
     
  17. tonygw Valued Contributor ★ ★ ★ ☆ ☆

    Just wondering what kind of rattle it is? is it a heavy metallic rattle or a light tappet rattle? Does it sound like its coming from the insides of the engine or something on the outside top or bottom? I appreciate that sometimes its almost impossible to be sure. But any clues might be useful, then again if you've had a few mechanics look its going to be tough to know over the internet.

    Cheers
     
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  18. Bear1 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Ireland Kevin Galway
    67
    6
    It sounds like a metally clatter. It isn't big end damage nor anything fatal related.
    I've had the sump removed for inspection but everything given the all clear. The engine has no leaks of any kind and the exterior of the engine itself is bone dry.
    The reason it makes zero sense to me is that the engine sounds perfectly fine at idle and in 1st gear but the moment I put it into second and floor it (same with 3rd and 4th) the rattle comes along.
    This is only if I'm accelerating, if I am staying at a constant speed then there is no rattle.
    As for top or bottom, very hard to know. From where I'm sitting all I can say it's right in front of me.
    My mind always goes back to the injectors. But I would have thought that it would be a constant noise regardless of speed, stationary or not or which gear I'm in.
     
  19. tonygw Valued Contributor ★ ★ ★ ☆ ☆

    Ner if it was big end failure you would certainly know about it.

    Could it be gearbox or clutch related? If you select neutral and rev hard does it rattle then?
    Wondering if it might be the DMF or clutch release bearing? I am guessing completely though.
     
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  20. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    As best practice sprocket and chains are always replaced as a set. Worn out sprockets wear out chains faster. For the sake of saving a few pennies it's false economy .
     
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