General Shot in the dark but with more thought.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by 2011accordstealth, Thursday 6th Aug, 2015.

  1. 2011accordstealth Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United States Gavan New York
    27
    3
    hello, HK, im not sure who has seem my prior post about this but whatever, Im on the drawing board for an idea to rig a secondary intake system. It essentially is and added "ram air system" but with my own thing. I plan to take a small velocity/ induction cone, position it in the grille but within have one of the scaled down turbo compressor fans the ones that are sold as a fuel saver power increase gimmick. But have the one in the grille be spun by the ram air of driving, in theory the faster you go the more power. Connected behind the fan will be induction tubing down directly to my intake filter. Here will be another fan but faced so that while its in the top of the filter it increases the vacuums at the filter thus pulling in all the air thats been sent thru the tube, seen as that this will all be a one way track the engines induction will be sucking in the air as it would under normal induction but also has the extra mass of air from the fan setup. Im only on the drawing board here. Any suggestions? Revisions at all anyone leave feedback i open to improve this. I had an additional idea, this is not for the looks seen as that i wouldn't get a large one, id like to maybe incorporate a small F.M.I to give it a charge of cold, or is that a worthless idea. Anyone and all please leave your feed back
     
    Loading...
  2. Zebster Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    United Kingdom .
    2,559
    1,247
    1
    Surely an unpowered fan driven by the ram air effect is merely a restriction? And I really don't think you'll be generating sufficient charge to need any sort of intercooler.

    Why not consider more 'traditional' methods of power increase? There's a fair few things for the K24, including a flash remap, although I'm unsure which of your vehicles you wish to modify?
     
    Loading...
  3. 2011accordstealth Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United States Gavan New York
    27
    3
    Im going to be doing to the V6 with the J23Z2 engine, the first fan driven by ram air will ( in theory) push air thru the beginning of the pipe and once it gets to the filter end, the fan will be positioned to work with induction vacuum from the engine to spin and at the same time suck in air going thru the tube. I did this on the K24 and it yielded great results. The exhaust too being an aftermarket one it sounded like the car was crammed after the install.
     
    Loading...
  4. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

    England Speedy Birmingham
    14,999
    5,595
    4
    You can't get power for free. The fans can't aid sucking in additional volume of air by using the same air passing through them as the source of the energy to spin the fans.

    The fans need to be powered by external force, hence the concept of superchargers (which are run by engine power) or turbo chargers (which use the exhaust gases).

    As @Zebster says all that the fans will do is act as restrictions and therefore slow your car down even more.

    You simply can't defy the laws of physics !
     
    Loading...
    Nighthawk likes this.
  5. 2011accordstealth Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United States Gavan New York
    27
    3
    the force of going down the road at say 65 will spin it at 65 for lack of a better word, it'll then go thru the tube and at the filter end, which is open top i forgot to say, its a spectre filter and there an adapter piece that meets airtight with the hole in the top, it'll be connected as a straight thru design, so the air starts from the grill, thru and past the fan and into the second fan thats facing to suck it the air along with induction vacuum, at the intake end the engine is "inhaling" and the fan on the filter will be sponge from induction vacuum and at the same time on the pop side of the fan, sucking in the air from the tube thats been being shot thru, i anticipate this to work only at decently high speeds not as a way to up low end power
     
    Loading...
  6. DeviateDefiant Co-Founder Staff Team

    United Kingdom Leo Northants
    9,206
    2,977
    3
    Okay @SpeedyGee beat me to it but I'll finish as I was half way through writing :Laughing:

    I think this is the huge flaw in the plan. A fan spun by the force of the air coming through isn't actually pulling more air in, it's causing a restriction to it getting through.

    You're basically hinting at a way of supercharging the car without increasing the pressure/density of the air. The thing is, that's not going to work, there's only so much air that can make it into the combustion camber, infact if you go too large on the intake piping you lose power from the lack of pressure which slows down the flow. Superchargers work because they increase the pressure (imagine squashing air so more fits into the same space) and turbos because the exhaust gases are rich with unburnt hydrocarbons which are combustible.

    You're looking at the wrong ways to make power buddy, work on intake/exhaust mods by all means for some marginal gains, but the big ways to make power are remapping, forced induction, work on the engine itself such as cams, porting, boring, higher compression or working to lessen parasitic drain (removing auxillary components, lightening pulleys, flywheel etc.).
     
    Loading...
  7. Zebster Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    United Kingdom .
    2,559
    1,247
    1
    I'm now thinking of you as a posh British version of Scotty in the original Star Trek, @SpeedyGee !
     
    Loading...
    Nighthawk and DeviateDefiant like this.
  8. DeviateDefiant Co-Founder Staff Team

    United Kingdom Leo Northants
    9,206
    2,977
    3
    Think you missed people's earlier points there. The force of going down the road, is the air hitting the fans, that's slowing down the air. The fan needs to spin using a different form of energy to actually not cause a restriction else it's the air powering it, if that is a belt-driven fan from the engine, you're losing power to make power, if that's electrical - well - I can still see other issues :Laughing:

    I've got to be frank buddy, there's a reason you don't see fans powering intakes on cars - the principle doesn't hold up.
     
    Loading...
  9. Zebster Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    United Kingdom .
    2,559
    1,247
    1
     
    Loading...
  10. SpeedyGee Administrator Staff Team

    England Speedy Birmingham
    14,999
    5,595
    4
    Blog-photo-510x364.

    (although in this case I doubt we'd be getting to that stage with mini fans stuck in the intake piping :Grin:)
     
    Loading...
    Zebster and DeviateDefiant like this.
  11. DeviateDefiant Co-Founder Staff Team

    United Kingdom Leo Northants
    9,206
    2,977
    3
    I think you might on a BMW, they've got to be at the tipping point with all those turbos upon turbos :Laughing:
     
    Loading...
  12. 2011accordstealth Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United States Gavan New York
    27
    3
    interesting happenings? the plan being was to match the piping diameter wilt the outlet of the fan and this fan is a alone fan not connected to anything
    - - - Updated - - -
    it already has an ingenue CAI and a full 2.5in CBE
     
    Loading...
  13. DeviateDefiant Co-Founder Staff Team

    United Kingdom Leo Northants
    9,206
    2,977
    3
    But the fact the air has to push through the fan and spin it means that air is powering the fan, and the fan isn't sucking in the air otherwise. Do you follow?
    - - - Updated - - -
    What I'm saying is, put two tubes side by side at the front of the car, one is just open, one has a fan just sitting on the front - more air would get through the open tube.
     
    Loading...
  14. 2011accordstealth Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United States Gavan New York
    27
    3
    the front fan in the grille is the "push" for the air and the on on the top of the filter is reversed to pull in the air that was just pushed
     
    Loading...
  15. DeviateDefiant Co-Founder Staff Team

    United Kingdom Leo Northants
    9,206
    2,977
    3
    A fan that isn't powered by anything doesn't push air mate.
     
    Loading...
    Nighthawk likes this.
  16. exec Premium Member Club Supporter

    United Kingdom London
    2,863
    1,493
    You can already buy cheap intake systems with fans on them off ebay which claim to give you 1000bhp increase, think they are called vortex intake system or something like that and claim to be based off those used on BTCC cars, all a load of :Lipsrsealed:
     
    Loading...
  17. Zebster Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    United Kingdom .
    2,559
    1,247
    1
    Hopefully the not-very-serious YT clip nevertheless demonstrated and explains how even a pair of fairly powerfully electrically driven fans make no real difference. A simple fan is the wrong technology to achieve proper charging of the intake system... It really needs a Roots type blower, or similar, that can really generate pressure (not just flow) OR you have to make the thing spin really, really incredibly fast. And that applies to driven fans only.
     
    Loading...
  18. exec Premium Member Club Supporter

    United Kingdom London
    2,863
    1,493
    Aye, if it was so simple as sticking fans on intake tubes, it would have been done already by manufacturers themselves and a popular mod by enthusiasts.

    Not one to discourage others in trying stuff out, but this mod is clearly not going to achieve much.

    Let us know how you get on thought and some pics of your setup would be good.
     
    Loading...