Tyres & Wheels Skidding/slipping

Discussion in '7th Generation (2003-2008) [Acura TSX]' started by hsyasin, Tuesday 3rd Dec, 2013.

  1. hsyasin Valued Contributor ★ ★ ★ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Hammad Bury St. Edmunds
    353
    56
    Hey all,
    I've this dreaded problem of me accord just acting like a cat whenever it rains, its like its afraid of water, coz in dry weather its all fine and dandy and grip is excellent and stuff, but as soon as there is a little bit of water or dampness on the road.. wooosh it goes :Sobbing:
    And i really like cornering hard, but it doesn't seem to handle it well, even at lower speeds. Part or whole of it is down to tyres i guess, coz when i bought it, it had some budget sort of tyres on it named 'Event' and I do remember putting those on my galant, and they did slip, but not alot on my mitsu.
    But on accord, as i said, woosh..
    I mean i do like the occasional putting my foot down in wet weather and they spin quite a bit, even when driving in slow speed in lower gear, I just put my foot down without even clutching, they just spin and m like:Happy:, and people r like:Blink:(a 2litre accord?!)
    So, was wondering, could something dodgy in suspension or related parts cause tyres to loose traction without a reason or is it just down to those ***event tyres?:Unknown:
    FYI: driving on motorway is fine, high speeds fine, no vibrations or uneven tread wear
     
    Loading...
  2. Racy Jace Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    My wifes Nissan note was like this as it had brand new budget tyres on. I swapped them for the rears as they had continental on them. Even though they were worn the grip was loads bette and now more wheel spinning off the drive. If you want decent wet weather grip change to a better make I'm afraid.
     
    Loading...
  3. hsyasin Valued Contributor ★ ★ ★ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Hammad Bury St. Edmunds
    353
    56
    well thats what my suspicion has been all along :Sobbing:
    guess i've to drive very slow in wet then, struggling a bit financially:Blushing:
     
    Loading...
  4. PeteMM Premium Member Club Supporter

    Northern Ireland Pete Belfast, UK
    854
    454
    tyres - maybe something as simple as pressures, but IMO cheap tyres are dangerous and should not be allowed on the public highway.

    I actually turn my VSA button off when it is wet, the cutting of power mid-corner if it feels any slip in the wet is just dangerous and at least 3 corners on my way to work is a key factor in forced oversteer without the ability to drive out of it. Now either I should drive slower, or the VSA needs removed. Thats on crap covered roads in the country but running Uniroyal RainSport 2's
     
    Loading...
  5. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
    30,130
    6,383
    516
    VSA is not just cutting power mate it gently engaging your rear brakes so you don't lose rear traction have a look at the link . you are a brave man to turn it off god forbid you have a tyre burst it will save you from torque steer.

    Link

    its easy to criticise when you think it only does a few things .:Wink:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Saturday 22nd Mar, 2014
    Loading...
  6. PeteMM Premium Member Club Supporter

    Northern Ireland Pete Belfast, UK
    854
    454
    It is easy to criticise when the car is doing things without a driver input. I have spent enough time sliding FWD cars about, racing and rallying to understand how to control the vehicle, I am also the sort of person that will happily remove the ABS fuse in the snow and approach everything using my left foot to brake meaning the wheels never want to lock.

    VSA much the same as ABS causes panic and confusion at the exact point you need to be clear minded and sure footed - they cause your arse dyno to freak out because you didnt tell the car to lift off, or your mind is removed from the road and driving to the weird feedback through the pedal, and as such, (and the important part) in my opinion, i think it is dangerous.

    Now that's not to say it is dangerous for all, 95% of drivers on the road will never feel ABS or VSA cutting in because they are happily commuting, not really paying much attention to the road anyway and should something happen, they are fantastic alternatives to actually knowing what to do in that situation - removing driving standards and capability and replacing it with a consistent mechanical method of trying to prevent the forthcoming accident.

    I'm by no means saying I am Senna reincarnated, but reality is I have a sub 200hp estate car, if I am not personally capable of steering it properly at a speed I am comfortable with and give myself enough time and space to react to the unknown then I shouldn't have a driving license - that would also then remove the license from almost every person on our roads in this day and age. i come from a motorsport family, I married into another motorsport family, my life is devoted to cars and driving and no matter how smart the electronics, they will simply never make up for a human beings ability to process the moving image through their windscreen.

    As for tyres bursting, have experienced it quite a few times, in cars and vans - once again, not something an electronic control unit can learn to cope with and at 50/60/70mph it will certainly never react in a way that is taking into account the driver input whether that be throttle position, steering position or god forbid the bloody brake pedal through fear - it doesnt know how wide the road is or how solid the oncoming lorry is, it cannot make the last minute decision between a tractor or the hedge nor can it determine if you were on gravel, grass or cow sh*t or how long that surface will remain like that - so I am happily going about my day with it turned off, because once again, in my opinion, it is dangerous
     
    Last edited: Wednesday 4th Dec, 2013
    Loading...
  7. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
    30,130
    6,383
    516
    mate everyone including motorcycle enthusiasts said electronic aids are waste of space, now electronics are the forefront of keeping these beast under control in a predictable manner, you will find all these hard stone face people or "none of electronic malarkey" have changed their tune! when the lap times come in

    Not everyone has race craft as you have honed the old fashion way which is good and should be advocated to all infact I would say first learn to ride a bike , then some speedway or dirt bike riding before you get to cars you will be a complete rider or driver.

    .. but this notion electronics are for cotton puff Jessie does not hold up bud.. it just does not
     
    Loading...
  8. ArcticFire-Account Closed Banned Getting Started

    Scotland Graham Scotland
    3,521
    1,051
    7
    I'd definitely put my money on the tyres being a bit crap. I remember my old 6th Accord and I put these Mitchell Energy tyres on, stuck to the road like Loctite but they sure did wear out fast! lol

    Is this a recent thing btw? Just wondering if the colder weather is also a contributing factor as I'd bet cheaper tyres harden faster when the temp drops - but that's just my guessing. I've now got a full set of Yokohama winter tyres on all four wheels and what with the AWD the car is quiet literally glued to the road. At the weekend (before fitting the final two winter tyres) I swapped my tyres about again so that the winter ones were on the rear and the summer budget ones (came with the car) were back on the front as I was getting some vibration problems with two of the alloys which are now on the rear. Straight away I could feel the steering was very light and gave me no confidence.

    But now, there's many a corner where I can see the car behind having to really slow down whereas I can continue as normal, although don't get me wrong I'm not taking it for granted as ICE will make anyone slip! lol

    If you only replace two of the tyres then there's the debate about should they go on the front or the rear. It's been shown that putting them on the rear is better as it will stop you losing the rear end because you'll feel the slip through the front long before the rear has a chance to go. Put the good tyres on the front and they will give you the confidence to corner harder as the front will grip, however, the rear cheap tyres could lose traction and away it goes!

    As for VSA, well I'm far from a great driver but I do remember a few times when it saved my skin on a corner. Maybe it was my fault, but for those who are less experienced then I would vote for it being a good thing. Besides, I don't think Honda with all their expertise, funding, testing and ethos of being at the forefront of safety would waste time and money on a system which is either inadequate or a complete failure. It will have been tried and tested to be a successful safety feature for the majority of Honda drivers. :Smile:
     
    Loading...
    PeteMM likes this.
  9. PeteMM Premium Member Club Supporter

    Northern Ireland Pete Belfast, UK
    854
    454
    Totally agree. But my Accord is not equipped with the electronic trickery of the Nissan GTR, Ferrari F12 or anything else where lap times matter. It is a run of the mill, thirsty petrol powered estate car for the daily commute, dragging the dogs about and hooking a trailer onto for the weekends carnage in the competition car. Every single mile of driving is another lesson, another experience and there will always be something new.

    VSA (which is what we were actually discussing before I went off topic) - as a driver who is very self-analytical - cuts the throttle when a certain percentage of slip is felt, this is what I feel is the equivalent to a drivers natural reaction, which is to let go of the accelerator - now whether or not the brakes do infact get applied does not make itself apparent in my experience. But the fact that fast deceleration can be done via an electronic circuit whilst mid corner is a recipe for disaster.

    If I get a chance someday I will video the difference between the two approaches to show the problem in real time as talking about it is just going to stir up your emotions and belief in the current systems on the car and make me look like an arse by trying to reply each time.
     
    Loading...
  10. ArcticFire-Account Closed Banned Getting Started

    Scotland Graham Scotland
    3,521
    1,051
    7
    If you cut the throttle in a corner isn't that taking power away from both front wheels whilst also shifting the balance of the car? I thought VSA could target each wheel individually as necessary and therefore allow a more precise reaction to the situation? This isn't an area I'm skilled in btw with things like driving out of a corner etc being the usual skill set, so still learning lol
     
    Loading...
  11. hsyasin Valued Contributor ★ ★ ★ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Hammad Bury St. Edmunds
    353
    56
    But u've the 'MPS' :Aghast:

    wish there was an equivalent in accord. Anyways, hows the mps stacking up against accord, in mileage, parts and economy and ofcourse reliability?

    - - - Updated - - -

    I quite agree with pete on having a good control on ur car coz u never know when an these electronic stability programs fail, and if u r dependent on 'em, then adios amigos :Bye:

    I myself do the similar thing, I mean i don t have VSA on my accord anyways :Sobbing:, but what i do is looking first if the road is safe/clear and then try to deliberately push the car around a corner to see how much it can handle and at what speed/moisture ratio makes it slip and how much will make it just go out of control.
    The thing i was a bit not happy about was that my old 98 galant was more stable on the same cheap tyres than this new 03accord, with wider tyres. guess it had some stability thingy baked into the system, coz it was an automatic and i didnt had much options to turn on/off, but it was pretty darn stable, even in snow i could push it a bit.

    But yeah, as soon as I've my finances managed, I'll definitely change these tyres, its just that they're quite expensive, I mean 100+ for one tyre come on, whereas i remember when i found out that my tyres on the old mitsu weren't that good(which i got fitted when i had a puncture in one tyre and i just had put two new cheap tyres around 90ish on instead of getting that repaired) and changed them instantly after finding out in winter that they slip to a good pair of kumho's which cost me around 130ish for pair.
     
    Loading...
  12. PeteMM Premium Member Club Supporter

    Northern Ireland Pete Belfast, UK
    854
    454
    I have always found Hondas are very picky about the tread pattern and type of rubber on each corner.

    Yoko Parada's were simply fantastic road tyres on the old DC2 Integras (until it rained) yet when we tried a generic swoopy design tread pattern - the fast road setup carried out on the car was pointless, the four corners may aswell have been pointing in whatever direction they pleased.

    My car came with 2 Uniroyals (I am still not 100% convinced these are the ideal tyre) and 2 budget brands and it was not a safe car to drive quickly. A lot of money later, we have it at a point I am relatively happy but I still feel there is a vagueness on turn-in with the accord. It feels as if the tyre is allowing the sidewall to roll slightly, then your grip is regained when the tyre has stopped moving about laterally, it is just a split second where it feels like the car does not respond. However, this is only happening at around the 55-60mph area, below that it is fine and above it I think the time frame for that feeling is so small its a tough call to know whether or not it is doing it.

    Good quality tyres are a must though, not so much for handling, but it doesn't matter how good your ABS and other trickery is, if you don't have good tyres in an emergency situation, you simply are not stopping in time.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_j-2W2uZ8c
     
    Loading...
  13. ArcticFire-Account Closed Banned Getting Started

    Scotland Graham Scotland
    3,521
    1,051
    7
    Performance wise, well the 2.0 Accord Turbo to come probably won't be far off but I've no doubt it will be very tuneable so long as the ECU isn't heavily protected against mapping. If they stick their SH-AWD in it then that's all she wrote. Look at how much kudos Audi have got in the past because of their Quattro! Only problem though is that you will be looking at new car prices with the Honda - ouch!

    I'm getting about 25mpg but I am doing a lot of short runs and the poor engine barely gets to warm up although I stay off boost so that helps counter this. I'll always try and get a motorway or two in there each week though but as the engine warms up it's boost time and bang goes my MPG! lol I'm lucky enough that my current situation doesn't warranty good fuel economy so I don't really pay much attention to it anymore other I won't be able to enjoy the car.

    I haven't had to order many parts but things like air filters etc are much cheaper, although I did notice it was much more flimsy compared the one already in the car. It's genuine so perhaps they've downgraded the quality in order to reduce costs? Recent purchases include a front plastic cover for the tow eye slot which was £10 and a small plastic cover for one of the roof rack screw points which was £5.

    It's too early to tell with regard to reliability to be honest. I reckon at least 6 months is needed but it should be ok as I've got the car with a low enough mileage that hopefully it hasn't suffered too much previous abuse!

    I think the best thing about the MPS6 is that for the price there's not much else out there that can give you all that performance but also a big, equipped and hopefully reliable car which is still fairly young and less likely to have been abused such as the WRX's and Evo's plus insurance is quite low for the MPS considering it's power. Any of the German makes at the same budget and you'll be looking at either a much older car or a very high mileage.

    I'd actually quite like to get out in my Accord again to remind me of it but I'm not insured on it anymore. :Angry:
     
    Loading...
  14. ArcticFire-Account Closed Banned Getting Started

    Scotland Graham Scotland
    3,521
    1,051
    7
    I had to grab a lift in the Accord yesterday, oh those seats! The back part is so sumptuous I'd forgotten! lol
     
    Loading...
    SpeedyGee likes this.
  15. mrjolly Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    VSA frightens the life out of me too! im used to driving at the limit of cars and have an expectation of what will happen at those limits and VSA feels totaly counter intuitive. mid corner , cutting engine power and applying rear brakes , hmmmmm. i wonder how many profesionay skilledl drivers would recommend that ?. Last thing i want to happen I know that much!!
     
  16. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
    30,130
    6,383
    516
    I have complete and a lot a faith in its ability. Its cutting power to gain traction and grip without it you will wander off .. Since we are on this topic that electronic aid are counterproductive and takes the joy away let's take the ABS out since every one is skilled to modulate brake pressure each wheel independently. Are we or we just ace drivers . God forbid anyone of you have a tyre blow out at 70 miles or higher this VSA will get your car in control but tyre blowout won't ever happen to me will they ...
     
    Loading...
    Doc likes this.
  17. Topper Harley Senior Member ★ ★ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Big difference between a skilled " professional " drivers compared to your average everyday driver.
     
  18. candobill Valued Contributor ★ ★ ★ ☆ ☆

    skilled professional driver mm is that your everyday taxi/bus/whitevanman/lorry/pizza delivery driver or one who drives on a track ? maybe its the caravan menace who everyone hates but never tried it themselves :Happy::Happy:as they say don't knock it till you've tried it :Wink:
     
    Loading...
  19. PeteMM Premium Member Club Supporter

    Northern Ireland Pete Belfast, UK
    854
    454
    CJ, you know my thoughts already but here goes...

    It's not a case of being an ace driver, simply a case of being more alert and slightly more talented than the really really stupid people it was designed to protect.

    As for a blow out at 70mph, neither VSA or ABS assisted me when it happened in a fully laden Vauxhall Vivaro. ABS or any form of stability control didn't make sure there was a break in oncoming traffic giving me the time to gather up the sh*t show. On that note, neither ABS or any form of stability control could have prevented the one accident I did have. When the camber of the road mixed with sheet ICE decide your vehicle is leaving the road, trust me, you are leaving the road. Even with the extensive toolkit of driving techniques I have learned/practised over the years there was simply nothing could be done and as much as you may wish to praise VSA, ABS, TCS, and all the other driver aids - not a single one works when you are truly f**ked.

    As mrjolly and I have said, it gets turned off, for the simple reason that it is off putting and does not provide an enjoyable driving experience. Growing up and competing, all my driving has been done without these aids, without airbags, in very basic and normally unforgiving cars which are getting driven at 100% of their capabilities, my road car is very very rarely driven in the top 25% of its capability and still VSA decides to kick in, infact it happily kicks in at times where your brain has already committed to a line, jump or corner and the entire process is mapped out and you are already planning the next corner, maybe even two ahead but your concentration is nipped in the bud because the car has done something alien, upsetting both the car and your ability to carry out whatever it was you had planned.

    To give an example of when VSA was simply useless was in the video I posted of the Accord doing a slalom in the field. First I had to do a couple of small sections around tight twisty cones across slippy grass/dirt/muck. With VSA on, any wheel slip brought the light on, curbed the cars enthusiasm and progressively left me without any momentum whatsoever to even drive up a slight incline. Turned off, with a mix of a steady foot and some left foot brake I was able to stop power going to the slipping wheel and gain traction to get up the hill. Effectively acting like an LSD would by limiting slip to the wheel turning and allowing the power to be provided to the wheel that wasn't. The video and the times show I am more than fit to drive the car as loose as I want it to be and still be in an element of control - VSA does not account for that, it has one setting that does all which is okay for driving round town, motorway, and daily commuting, it is NOT the be-all and end-all when it comes to driving in an enthusiastic manner or even on Northern Irish roads for that matter.

    I in no way said it was a bad thing, it just isn't for me.

    I have never had an issue with ABS in the accord though, will find the fuse for that when it snows just to wind CJ up :Tongue:
     
    Last edited: Saturday 4th Jan, 2014
    Loading...
  20. candobill Valued Contributor ★ ★ ★ ☆ ☆

    I still don't know what ABS VSA does I drive my car and if it slips I steer it where I want to go :Happy:
     
    Loading...