Off-Topic Swindon Engines and BTCC Car Engines.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Chat' started by Ichiban, Friday 1st Jan, 2016.

  1. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    I for one always thought all the manufactures in the BTCC had their own racing divisions making their own engines for thier own car. How wrong was I until I read this 2015 BTCC Honda Civic Type-R driven | Autocar

    Honda make their own engines for the BTCC car and the rest of the grid is supplied by Swindon Engine http://www.swindon-engines.com/images/Document/TOCA2021.pdf

    Swindon Powertrain | Manufacturing | Testing | Design

    toca_2_web.

    Swindon Powertrain | Manufacturing | Testing | Design see all the news clips which suggest the entire grid is supplied this unbranded engine.:Wink:

    Swindon’s engines will be found under the bonnet of a total of fourteen cars in this year’s BTCC. Three MGs from Triple Eight, two Volkswagen and two Vauxhalls from team BMR, two Toyotas from Speedworks and one from Lea Wood Racing, one Mercedes from Ciceley, two Audis from RAR and one from Rotek will all be powered by engines designed, developed and manufactured by Swindon. In addition, Swindon provides dedicated Support Engineers at each race week-end, working together with the teams to help get the most performance out onto the track.
     
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  2. exec Premium Member Club Supporter

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    Thats interesting would never had imagined that, not surprising of course that Honda build and use their own engine they wouldn't accept anything less, but I think its a bit of a downer that most of the other cars all use the same generic engine, takes away the competitiveness, I want to see cars built by a manufacturer top to bottom, that is a proper testament to building and winning yourself and proving you are the number 1.
     
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  3. legend-ary Moderator Staff Team

    United Kingdom Legend The Big Smoke
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    I agree however the reason BTCC is so competitive and the pack so close together is because the crate engines are almost as good as it gets meaning smaller team won't have to spend millions to gain a point. Chassis tuning and aero are still up for each team to develop so each car is still very much different as what you start with will have an impact. What other series pits FWD Civic next to a RWD Audi.. I love it and wish Nissan brings their Pulsar in and recreate the infamous Accord vs Primera vs Megane vs Mondeo battles of the 90s
     
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  4. PeteMM Premium Member Club Supporter

    Northern Ireland Pete Belfast, UK
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    Even in the 90's Honda only really supplied the castings

    Neil Brown Engines built the B20's for the BTCC cars, no VTEC as VVT was banned but running happily and reliably at circa 300hp.
     
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  5. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    This is farce so called BTCC racing using the same engine why are then all the manufacturer using their names. It's should be unbranded cars like the same as the engine. But full credit to Honda for using their your engine and engineering might. BTCC is nothing but a marketing stunt to get public thinking they are buying a successful car which it isn't.
     
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  6. HondaHeritage Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    slim london
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    this is a total traversty the oppertunity for the main manufacturers to show ability to produce a competitive car is now highly in question !!!
    we have many one make race series of racing that works fine but this is now turning the BTCC into a mish mash of hybrid cars will no true identity to relate to ??
    honda have got this so right with the Type-R to the point were it looks like the eroupean manufactures are looking for a cheap option to collectively gang up on honda to beat them???

    disagree with this point this is the high end of the sport so there for it is expensive if you enter it you know what the budget is that is needed as stated before there are plenty of fast one make series at a far lower budget ,if you want to play with the big boys you need big boy budgets !!!
    i personally can't see how a small company can build cheaper engines than major car manufactures ??
    personally this looks like a joint eropean manufactures fit up
    i have had the experience in one make motor racing and its a good feeling to know everyone sitting on the grid with you has the same equipment so it down to you to prove your the better driver
    BTCC is a driver/ manufacturer battle to produce the best car and driver combination showing driver skills and capability and a manufacturer showing its design and expertize in promoting its product
     
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  7. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    I initially hated BTCC but last years race at brand made me sit-up and pay attention, but this farce has make think why are these manufacturers apart from Honda duping the public?

    It simple they cannot produce a competitive engine..
     
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  8. HondaHeritage Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    slim london
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    i just find it totally unbelievable
    i really don't know were motorsport is going
    i chosed to race 1600 formula fords as it was a one make series and on a budget of £10000 for the 1st year ( that was including my car) it was a great way to enter into motor racing and very cheap in comparission to anything else in competitive racing
    it was simple one make tyres used for wet and dry 4 speed hewland gearbox and blueprint only ford caste iron 1600 sohv basicly out of the 1960/70,s cortina 1600e
    these little car were fast !!! o-60 in 4,5 secs! and geared for a long circuit up to 160mph bloody good value using ford of the shelve parts !!!! real skin of the pants driving !!!
    dug out some picies of me racing at brandshatch in the 90.s

    my%20formula%20ford%20at%20brands%20019_zpsseykruwf.

    my%20formula%20ford%20at%20brands%20010_zpsxc76wxbh.

    my%20formula%20ford%20at%20brands%20007_zpsfr7qcnou.

    my%20formula%20ford%20at%20brands%20020_zpskgzrqd7a.

    my%20formula%20ford%20at%20brands%20014_zpslir7ucys.
     
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  9. exec Premium Member Club Supporter

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    I also thought apart from using motorsport for marketing purposes, the other purpose of competing was developing technology and treacle-ing them down to your roadcars, I'm sure I read somewhere that the Civic BTCC car was also a testground for turbo technology for their roadcars?
     
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  10. HondaHeritage Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    slim london
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    absolutely i could not agree more
     
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  11. legend-ary Moderator Staff Team

    United Kingdom Legend The Big Smoke
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    Correct me if I am wrong but I think MG and Honda are the only two 'manufacturers' in BTCC. rest are just private teams with no factory backing by VW, Infinity, BMW etc so ofcourse these smaller teams have tight budgets. If no manufacturer is willing to take part and there are no spec engines, only 4 cars will take part. F1, as much as I hate it these days is making similar arrangements with Cosworth to supply a spec engine to teams that cannot get into deal with engine manufacturers. Redbull almost didn't have an engine for their 2016 car until late November.. Renault unit was crap and Mercedes and Ferrari didn't want to support their arch nemesis. Honda is too cosy with McLaren and told them until we fix McLaren's units we cannot get into another partnership
     
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  12. PeteMM Premium Member Club Supporter

    Northern Ireland Pete Belfast, UK
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    But Honda have only produced the castings for their BTCC engines since 1990 or 1991 - everything else is done by NRE, so it isn't Honda putting in the research and development on making 300hp engines. In the same way, it isn't Honda that are producing the suspension or the shells in the car. Take the Honda sponsorship away and you have another private (albeit large) race team that could happily move to whatever manufacturer is going to pay them next year. The only components on these cars which are OEM is the floor pan, a few structural panels and the windscreen (even then it is probably an aftermarket lighter glass version), outside of that, everything is modified or replaced entirely with quality components to lighten and provide adjustability.

    The likes of NRE or swindon don't give much of a toss what the base castings are, the contents on all these engines are going to be very very similar.
     
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  13. HondaHeritage Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    slim london
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    this practice has been in place with nearly all manufacturers for many many years and in the msa blue book od rules you will find in most manufacturers series, standard engine block and heads are required but internals are open, the fact is swindon engines relate to no road going manufactered cars designs seem a trifle odd in the least as most if not all engine development companys start with standard a standard manufactured road engine ? with of course the exception of F1
    If swindon engines are to be used in BTCC cars they should also produce thier own stand alone car !!
     
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  14. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    That is my point exactly!
     
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  15. PeteMM Premium Member Club Supporter

    Northern Ireland Pete Belfast, UK
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    The same applies with the likes of Millington, etc too. Their roots are in developing standard blocks and heads to their own spec. I believe most are now basing their engines on fresh castings to their own design for the simple fact that the engines are slowly getting harder and harder to come by, and for reliability and consistency in results, nothing can beat going from a fresh slate.

    I do see the point being made though, and yes, I agree, but the likes of BTCC, WTCC, etc are the pinnacle of saloon car racing, and they have evolved into what they are today. In the same way, a Lotus Cortina was "the" saloon car to have in the 60's and compared to todays road cars, they are pure dung in every aspect (disregarding character), technology has progressed massively and so have the sports that rely on these technologies. Manufacturers have no desire to have "works" teams anymore, it is expensive, time consuming and resource draining - from a financial perspective, throw a few quid at an existing team and let them put your name out there, give them enough to put the best tech into the car within the regulations and let them get on with it.

    there are as you mentioned, literally hundreds of single make/controlled/restricted race series across the country and the world, BTCC is not one of them, nor is it a series that is easily entered by you or I. It is the same arguement about removing loads of stuff from formula one to make it more exciting - the point of formula one is not to be exciting, it is to develop technologies that filter down to aircraft and road cars, the technology in BTCC filters down to the thousands of clubman race series as time passes. It is natural progression and I like to support that progression being that we have developed classic rally cars now that need little more that a thorough wash after an event, instead of the weeks of spannering and repair work most need whilst still remaining well within the regulations.
     
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  16. HondaHeritage Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    slim london
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    this is IMO a rather shallow arguement yes i agree old engine components have obviously ,but in the cases (if imay use formula ford as an example) due to the success of the ford kent engine series ( which still prsents large grids world wide) ford have allowed the manufacture of engine components in africa allowing low budget racing to flourish using 60s design engines !!!! if manufactures in BTCC cannot afford a race program either pullout or at least supply the engines to the likes of swindon to develop and tune them ?? thier product is begining to look flawed and meaningless
    my formula ford engine was built by a company called patton based in ireland :Grin: thay were indisputable the best engine builder in my series at the time and would give outstandin and peak performance for at least a full season and a half of total reliabilty , i can't see many race cars offering this kind of reliabilty these days !!!

    technology and "heakth and safety" has slowly made motor sport a traversty involving obsene amounts of money required to run even an entry level series of racing , therefore a majority of the drivers these days are either rich twats or "my daddy was a racing driver "
    how is technology improving motorsport ! it would appear that in the pits these days a car now needs an enormous pit crew as clearly no one man knows how to repair or work on the entire car ?? so even more expense
    in the days of true racing, driver and mechanic was nearer the norm
     
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  17. PeteMM Premium Member Club Supporter