Off-Topic The dodgy pressure readings of Mercedes tyres on the grid at Monza

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Chat' started by jimjams, Sunday 6th Sep, 2015.

  1. jimjams Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    For those who don't know: Pirelli introduced a minimum tyre pressure of 19.5 psi on the cars at Monza today, as a safety precaution. As such, any team running at less than 19.5 psi would be making a technical infringement, and a technical infringement warrants a disqualification from the race.

    It's not exactly clear, but, it seems that someone from the FIA, supervised by Pirelli. used a calibrated gauge to check all 4 tyres on the first 4 cars on the grid (before the warm-up lap started). These were Hamilton, Raikonnen, Vettel, and Rosberg.

    The rear left of Hamilton's car was 19.2 and the rear left of Rosberg's tyre was 18.4. Rosberg did not finish the race (engine blew up). but Hamilton finished first.

    Now with it being Monza, one would expect the FIA (Ferrari International Assistance) to come into play, which it did, and Hamilton was told of the infringement only at the end, with a disqualification on the cards.

    Fortunately, Mercedes were able to show that their procedures, which they had always followed, and which were accepted by Pirelli, showed that the tyres were 19.5 psi when the wheels were in their heated blankets. I also suspect that Mercedes were able to show their telemetry showed that the tyres were always at or above 19.5 psi in the race.

    On Sky, they showed that the stem and valve are almost identical to the Schrader ones on road car tyres, so it begs the question: why was an FIA official be allowed to check the tyre pressures on the first four cars on the grid , when there are other procedures in place (or m I being too suspicious of the FIA) ?
     
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  2. vincemince Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Rear left tyres under pressure then ?
    Sounds daft but were those tyres cooling down quicker than the other 3 for a specific reason
    I.e cooling while standing still on grid from left side rear wind/shade ?

    The below ref. is a bit dated but principle holds ' heat increases the pressure ' .
    Tyre use in Formula One - F1technical.net
    Measuring the tyre pressure as often as possible is also a priority. Although low pressure (of about 1.1 kg/cm2) allows the envelope to grip the track better and provides a greater contact area, a variation of just 0.2 kg/cm2 can "ruin" the performance of the car. Therefore, any tyre supplier gives a range in which the teams can pressurise their tyres, and it is then up for the team's engineers and tyre specialists to see at what pressure they run them. In order to ensure the lowest possible variations in tyre pressure (heat increases the pressure), F1 tyres are filled with a special mixture of gasses.
    - - - Updated - - -
    Did not watch Grand Prix , so do not know if the weather conditions would have been able to cause this issue .
     
  3. Karmadrome Premium Member Club Supporter

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    Don't perell... Pere.. The manufacturer of the tyre collect the data from Tyre Pressure Sensors and hand all the data to the FiA where it is processed and any anomalies are highlighted for the teams to explain?
    - I didn't watch it either, with my local team doing so badly this season we attended a hillclimb and saw a Honda Beat - in really good nick too! Oh and a bevvy of VTEC minis and even a Mugen Atom. Much more productive then shouting at the telly.
     
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  4. vincemince Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Just looked on BBC i player , sun shining straight down grid so no problem with being in shade
     
  5. jimjams Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    I watched it live (on a website streaming a slightly pixelated Sky broadcast). I didn't see the grid before the warm-up lap, I only saw it from the start (poor Kimi had his engine go into anti-stall and by the time he got away he was last, did well to finish 5th).

    After the race, Rob Smedley (Felipe Massa's engineer, Williams team) spoke to the Sky chaps (Damon Hill and Martin Brundle) a couple of times about it, and he said it would take several minutes to lose 0.5 psi with the wheel on the tarmac out of its blanket. He also said that the rear left would be run slightly lower then the rear right, because Monza is a clockwise circuit.

    Don't forget that on the grid, Vettel was behind Hamilton, and Rosberg was behind Raikkonen, and neither Vettel nor Raikkonen had low pressures. As well as measuring the pressures, the FIA also measured the tyre temperature, which were not abnormal.

    It just strikes me as very bizarre that the tyres were checked with a tyre-pressure-gauge on the tarmac, and Rosberg's tyre had supposedly lost 1.1 psi, yet it was ok in the race !!!

    The stewrds' inquiry went on after the race, for longer than the race itself. Toto Wolf was, as usual, very diplomatic about it, and on the condensed BBC replay with that terrible puppet Suzi Perry, it hardly got any mention, considering the strangeness. As I say, how on earth was Rosberg's tyre supposed to have lost 1.1 psi, it all points to finger trouble with an idiot who didn't know how to use a tyre-pressure-gauge, or maybe someone who does know how to use one, but just not on the rear left of the car of Rosberg and Hamilton.
     
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  6. vincemince Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    Does this explain it or is not normal to check the tyres on the grid ?


    LATEST / HEADLINE

    No further action over Mercedes tyre pressure investigation

    Formula One racing's governing body the FIA have confirmed that no further action will be taken with regards to Mercedes' potentially breaching the minimum starting tyre pressures at Monza.

    As a result, Lewis Hamilton is set to remain victor of the Formula 1 Gran Premio d’Italia 2015.
    The concern centred around guidelines issued by Pirelli stating that teams must start the race with tyre pressures of 19.5psi or above. When both Mercedes were checked, Hamilton’s left-rear tyre was found to be 0.3psi below the required mark, with the same tyre on Nico Rosberg's car 1.1 psi under.
    Even as the national anthems played on the podium, the race result was therefore suddenly thrown into doubt, with Mercedes summoned to see the stewards. But after hearing from the relevant parties, the FIA confirmed that the team had no case to answer.
    "Having heard from the Technical Delegate, the Team Representatives and the Pirelli Team Tyre engineer, the Stewards have determined that the pressure in the tyres concerned were at the minimum start pressure recommended by Pirelli when they were fitted to the car," read a statement from the FIA.
    "In making this determination regarding the pressures, the Stewards noted that the tyre warming blankets had been disconnected from their power source, as is normal procedure, and the tyres were significantly below the maximum permitted tyre blanket temperature at the time of the FIA’s measurement on the grid, and at significantly different temperatures from other cars measured on the grid.
    "Further, the Stewards are satisfied that the team followed the currently specified procedure, supervised by the Tyre Manufacturer, for the safe operation of the tyres. Therefore the Stewards decide to take no further action.
    "Nevertheless, the Stewards recommend that the Tyre Manufacturer and the FIA hold further meetings to provide clear guidance to the teams on measurement protocols."
    - - - Updated - - -
    Apologies reference

    No further action over Mercedes tyre pressure investigation
     
  7. jimjams Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    AFAIK it's not normal procedure, because there are already procedures in place for checking the tyre pressures and temperatures while the tyres are in their blankets (presumably just before the mechanics fit them to the car).

    So it does seem strange that only the first 4 cars were checked (Hamilton-Mercedes, Raikkonen-Ferrari, Vettel-Ferrari, Rosberg-Mercedes), by an FIA official (not a Pirreli official) at an Italian circuit.

    I like the last sentence of the reference "the Stewards are satisfied that the team followed the currently specified procedure, supervised by the Tyre Manufacturer, for the safe operation of the tyres. Therefore the Stewards decide to take no further action. Nevertheless, the Stewards recommend that the Tyre Manufacturer and the FIA hold further meetings to provide clear guidance to the teams on measurement protocols"

    my summary "because Ferrari International Assistance used a highly suspect and non-standard test, they failed to get the Mercs disqualified at Monza"
     
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  8. Doc Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    The reason the FIA only checked the 1st 4 cars was because Rosberg qualified 4th so that way both Mercedes were in danger of infringing the rules. I wonder how many of the other teams ,if they had been checked, would have started with low pressures knowing they would go up to the right pressure during the race.

    It's very suspect how all 4 cars were checked before the race when scrutineering during practice and qualifying is a random checking process decided by a computer.

    Need it be reminded Jean Todt (ex Ferrari president) is the head of the FIA.:sherlock:
     
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  9. jimjams Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    ^ And I wonder if there was a "psssssssst" noise coming from the rear lefts of Hamilton and Rosberg as the FIA chap stuck the gauge onto the Schrader valve

    What's that Suzi and DC ....a Schrader ? ....oh it's a character in a film
     
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  10. Karmadrome Premium Member Club Supporter

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    Didn't he have a cat?

    :sorry:
     
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  11. jimjams Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    LOL wasn't that Erwin Schrödinger ?

    Hank Schrader was looking for "Heisenberg" (coincidentally/ironically, Werner Heisenberg was uncertain about lots of things, if he was alive today I'm sure he would have been very uncertain about the FIA's measurements)

    August Schrader (1807 - 1894) was a German-American immigrant who had a shop dealing in rubber products in Manhattan, New York City, USA.

    [many thanks to Wikipedia for the full names]

    edit: anyone here remember the Dunlop valves on bicycles ? (before the automotive Schrader valve replaced them, but Presta still exist) ?
     
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  12. FirstHonda Premium Member Club Supporter

    ^^ If the tyre is in a big box, can you tell whether it is at the right pressure or not?

    :Laughing:

     
    Last edited: Monday 7th Sep, 2015
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  13. Karmadrome Premium Member Club Supporter

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  14. jimjams Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

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    like the cat, the thread has also died, so is it possible to derail a dead thread LOL

    or did I write something different until you read this ?
     
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