Engine & Gearbox Why does the iCTDi feel a bit gutless to me on a test drive?

Discussion in '7th Generation (2003-2008) [Acura TSX]' started by Rakoribs, Wednesday 20th Mar, 2013.

  1. Rakoribs Senior Member ★ ★ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Hi,
    I am currently looking to buy a 7th Generation Honda Accord 2.2 ICTDI estate/tourer.

    I have recently test driven a 2007 Accord 2.2 saloon and compared to my current 2004 Alfa 156 1.9 JTD 16V (sportswagon/estate) the drive was pretty disappointing as the pull and power could be best described as gutless.
    This really surprised me, as on paper there isn't much to separate them for power/torque/weight.

    - Kerb weight: Accord is a bit heavier, 1482kg or 1578kg depending on where you read it, compared to 1355kg for the 156.
    - Power: is down around 10bhp on the Accord at 138bhp, compared to 150bhp on the 156.
    - Torque (the important one!): is up about 25 on the Accord, Accord = 251 lb/ft (metric 340 Nm), 156 = 225 lb/ft (metric 305 Nm).
    - Even the standard power/torque curves available on remap sites show similar curves, if anything stands out it's that the Accord starts out at a higher power/torque at low revs and continues higher up the rev range than the 156.
    - The 2.2 I-CDTI was designed to have a flatter response, more like a mixture between a petrol and a diesel, makes it feel less 'punchy'?

    I'm trying to get a test drive of another ICTDI to compare, in case there was an issue with the last car that wasn't obvious.

    At the moment its putting me off buying an Accord diesel (also the chocolate clutch), as I don’t really want to buy a car and then remap it just so that it drives well with decent pull as I expected it to as standard.

    Does anyone recognise the difference I have noticed, when compared to other similar age/power diesels?
    Or can suggest reasons why I'm not feeling the power of the ICTDI engine?

    Cheers, Mark.
     
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  2. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    It depends on the car if it been neglected worn clutch poor service history etc will result in the same.

    TBH you want to be looking at I-DTEC now as I-CTDI is well past it serviceable life.
     
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  3. Rakoribs Senior Member ★ ★ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Thanks Ichiban.
    Its the usual problem - I'd love an I-DTEC, but my bank manager isn't so certain...
    The clutch on the ICTDI is my biggest concern after a few weeks thread reading.
    Cheers, Mark.
     
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  4. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    I agree a lot to agree with you a lot people have to buy according to their budget but the reality is there are far too many superb I-CTDI lemons out there. We had a few share of new members buying a cheap diesel and they have had their heads chewed off . Don't buy it because its a bargain it will lead to a lot of heart ache.

    if you can save then buy the Accord I- DTEC if you want, stay well clear of the I-CTDI.
     
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  5. RobB Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    I would definitely drive another one. My tourer is heavier than the saloon and I wouldn't describe it as gutless.
    As CJ said depends how it's been looked after.
    Lots of junk iCTDis out there now, people trying to offload them on unsuspecting mugs.
     
  6. Rakoribs Senior Member ★ ★ ☆ ☆ ☆

    You both sound like you are aware of a large percentage of ICTDI's on the market that have serious problems.
    I had assumed that with the reliable reputation, the high original price and the lack of interest by boy-racer types that most of the 7th Generation Accords would have been owned and looked after fairly responsibly, compared to many other makes and models.

    Obviously it seems the clutch is a manufacturing design fault and is very common issue on standard cars.
    But, is there anything (or things) in particular you guys are referring to?

    Cheers, Mark.
     
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  7. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    VSA modulator
    Timing Chain
    Clucth
    high mileage car wear their front driveshafts.

    If you have few of these hits in your ownership which you WILL on the I-CTDI its pretty much a right off.
     
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  8. RobB Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    Can you guess CJ isn't the biggest fan.:Whistle:

    The timing chain is more of an issue on the pre 06 cars to be fair.
    The VSA modulator can be repaired but still talking a few hundred quid.
    The clutch will go at some point and has to be budgeted for.

    But there is definetly a lot of rubbish out there. I wouldn't buy unless its got full service history.
     
  9. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    On introspection yes not being a fan of diesel does cloud your judgement and you lean towards the slightly combative stance ( in my case boulder on my shoulders) :Rolf: It didn't help when Honda to Bosch for vendor development rather than building in house solution with Keihin or Denso, but that for another debate.

    Joking aside ..In reality people come flocking to I-CTDI for the legendary Honda reliability which is sadly Built, Founded ,Created, Accredited,Applauded, Documented on petrols :vtec:.. That is a FACT no matter how you look at it .. Diesel came into Honda stable 10 years ago Honda the largest maker of internal combustion engine has honed their trade on petrol engines.

    So when new punter coming flocking to the first Honda diesel with that aura of cast iron relaibility and sadly leave feeling disillusioned does hurt. Honda does have the stats of disillusioned customer who have left the brand never to come back years of loyalty has been erased by one car.

    You are right you can get all of the above fixed via workarounds,hacks salvage parts help from Accord owners.. But you didn't but the Honda to be tinkering with it you bought it to get on without moaning, which ONLY the petrols can do.

    Which sadly the I-CTDI cannot do and that is a FACT too, the I-DTEC has restored some faith but DPF is raw nerve.
     
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  10. davemazo Senior Member ★ ★ ☆ ☆ ☆

    I have to say in almost 58000 miles I have never had any problems at all other than normal service items and I'm confident that whoever buys it is getting a good reliable car. It was serviced more than it needed to be though. I won't be buying an I-DTEC though because of DPF problems on cars that don't do the miles like me, it's going to be a 2.4 petrol if I can find one.
     
  11. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    Dave you look after your car you have learnt all the pitfalls and have made sure you stick to the agreed servicing regime and best practices to keep your car out of danger. For which you should be commended for it :Hooray:

    It people who can't or refuse to be so regimentation and follow the plan who have the most issues. It not rocket science.
     
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  12. Primarycare Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    United Kingdom Primary c Northampton
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    mine ok

    except parking sensors driving me nuts at the moment prob a German part.

    Pulls like a train though :Smile: and miles of smiles on a tank of non tesco diesel
     
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  13. Doc Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    Matt Peterborough
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    As with most cars though if 1 owner has a problem with a car it will be posted on a forum. If 10 people have no problems what so ever none of them will bother to post anything.

    If I were you I'd test drive at least one more so you can make a fair comparison of the car you've just driven. Then when you do choose a car you'll know from the beginning if it might have any hidden faults.

    Yes the I-CTDI has it's faults, but if you find one that's been looked after and serviced regularly then there's no reason why you should have a problem. The clutches are a weak point and remapping the car will certainly lead to premature failure, but then there are other members who have done 110k miles on an original clutch. As mentioned the VSA modules can be a bit fragile but these can be repaired for £200 -£300, not the £1500 Honda will want for a new one.

    The only other thing which I don't think has been mentioned is the exhaust manifold. On high mileage cars some do crack along their welds, but you can buy a modified replacement for £300.

    For the record I'm one of the people who has experienced no problems with any of the above reported faults.
     
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  14. Ichiban Founder Staff Team

    England CJ Leeds
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    Doc and PrimaryCare your cars are stock and IIRC Dave's is too I think. You guys take car maintenance to the recommended best practices. so you won't have issues ..fingers crossed don't want the cruse of CJ on your cars. :Rolf:

    There are so many remapped cars out there you won't know which is stock.
     
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  15. RobB Expert Advisor ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    Oi mines stock too!
    No probs here apart from the clutch going. But it has got 132000 miles on her. Oil change every 6k is the main key to keeping the engine happy.
     
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  16. Rakoribs Senior Member ★ ★ ☆ ☆ ☆

    More food for thought.

    "If you have few of these hits in your ownership which you WILL on the I-CTDI its pretty much a right off."
    I've already had plenty of that with the Alfa.
    I've spent more on it (purely repairs & servicing) in 2-3 years, than I bought it for.
    The next owner is going to be one lucky booger, there won't be much original left on it.
    As my Alfa specialist put it "you've had the previous owners share of the repair bills, your share and then the next owners share as well..."
    Can you guess why i'm considering a Honda...

    Thanks again guys.
    Mark.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Hmm.. Thats a point i hadn't really considered.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Thats good advice i've been given recently as well, problem is finding many anywhere near me, with the right spec/price/etc up in Scottyland.
    I'll try some more and an I-DTEC too.
    Cheers, Mark.