Electrical & Lights Intermittent immobiliser/key/starting issue

Discussion in '1st Generation (2004-2011)' started by rich_jc, Friday 15th Dec, 2017.

  1. rich_jc Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Richard Suffolk
    22
    Hello all,

    I hope someone can help.

    I have a 2006 FR-V 2.2 diesel, and have an issue with starting.

    The car starts fine from cold, but sometimes when trying to start the car once warm or after a journey, the vehicle doesn't appear to recognise the key, as the key light just flashes on the dash whilst the engine turns over.

    I've noticed the glow plug light does not illuminate when this happens either.

    I have tried both keys (same with each) and locking and unlocking the car to no avail. If I wiggle the key a little between position 1 and 2 this will sometimes help things as I look out for the glow plug light to come on, but most of the time it does sort itself after a minute or two.

    It isn't life changing, but it is really annoying. I suspect the ignition switch at the end of the barrel, and wonder if I change this myself if I will cause any coding issues?

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    Richard
     
  2. Smokingman Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    United Kingdom John LN5
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    Hi. Rich.

    If it is anything like my previous Accord the ignition switch is clipped on the end of the lock barrel, where as the immobilizer is actually just round the lock barrel, so there should not be any coding issues. Just looked on the workshop manual, remove the steering column covers, unplug cable, remove two screws which hold the switch on.
     
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  3. rich_jc Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Richard Suffolk
    22
    Update,

    I have swapped over the ignition switch, and the car still starts. Time will tell whether the issue is still present or not.

    I read a few posts from other forums stating the ignition barrel needed to be removed to change the switch over as access to a screw on the rear of the switch is blocked by the cowling bracket. Thinking like an engineer, and with a little bit of brute force, I just folded the bracket back, and with use of the selfie camera on my phone, along with looking at the donor unit, I was able to locate and undo the rear screw blind.

    I will post an update in a few weeks if this has or hasn't sorted the issue.

    Regards

    Rich C
     
  4. rich_jc Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Richard Suffolk
    22
    UPDATE 24/1/18

    A few weeks later and problem still has not come back. I had a good few stops and starts the other day which normally would have highlighted the problem, but thankfully nothing.

    Hopefully this has been the fix I needed.

    Regards

    Rich C
     
  5. rich_jc Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Richard Suffolk
    22
    UPDATE 30/1/18

    Problem arose again briefly the other day, so obviously this has not been fully rectified.

    Richard
     
  6. rich_jc Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Richard Suffolk
    22
    Latest,

    So I've done a bit of experimenting, and I have ruled out the immobiliser ignition contact ring, and the glow plug relay.

    Given this issue occurs randomly when the vehicle is warm, I'm suspecting cracked solder joints in my main relay.

    Can anyone point me in the right direction of the main relay location? I'd imagine it's behind the dash somewhere but can't find any info online.

    Many thanks

    Rich
     
  7. Smokingman Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    United Kingdom John LN5
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    @rich_jc
    Many moons ago when i had a similar problem on a petrol accord the faulty rely was on the main panel in the drivers foot well, solution was remove relay reflow the solder joints with a soldering iron and drill ventilation holes in the relay case as it gets hot. This seemed to do the trick until the car got written off.

    I'll see if i can find the location for you.

    John.
    - - - Updated - - -
    @rich_jc .
    Diagrams may help.

    cct diag.

    relay location.

    John
     
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  8. rich_jc Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Richard Suffolk
    22
    John,

    Many thanks, but that looks like the starter relay? The starter motor has no problems and turns just fine, it seems to be the glow plug and immobiliser circuits that aren't getting what they need (and I'd imagine fuel pump?) as when this issue occurs, there is no glow plug light (not even a test light with ignition on) and the key (both keys) is not recognised so the immobiliser green light flashes.

    Rich
    - - - Updated - - -
    Would this be it? The big white one?
     

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  9. Smokingman Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    United Kingdom John LN5
    574
    342
    2
    Immobilizer System Troubleshooting
    Follow this procedure if the vehicle does not start after rewriting the ECM with the HDS.
    Note these items before troubleshooting:
    • Due to the action of the immobilizer system, the engine takes slightly more time to start than vehicle's without an immobilizer system.
    • When the system is normal, and the proper key is inserted, the indicator comes on for 2 seconds, then it will go off.
    • If the indicator starts to blink after 2 seconds, or if the engine does not start, repeat the starting procedure. If the engine still does not start, continue with this procedure.
    • Check the ECM DTC's.
    1. Remove the steering column covers.
    1. Disconnect the 7P connector (A) from the immobilizer control unit-receiver (B).
    1. Turn the ignition switch ON (II) with the proper key.
    1. Check to see if the immobilizer indicator comes on.
    Does the indicator come on (blinking or solid)?
    YES -Go to Step 5 .
    NO -Go to Step 8 .
    1. Check for voltage between the immobilizer control unit-receiver 7P connector No. 7 terminal and body ground.
    Is there battery voltage?
    YES -Go to Step 6 .
    NO -Check for these problems:
    • A blown No. 15 (40 A) fuse in the under-hood fuse/relay box.■
    • A blown No. 7 (10 A) fuse in the under-dash fuse/relay box.■
    • An open in the wire.■
    1. Check for voltage between the immobilizer control unit-receiver 7P connector No. 4 terminal and body ground with the parking brake pedal pushed, then released.
    Is there 1 V or less, then 5 V or more?
    YES -Go to Step 7 .
    NO -Check for these problems:
    • Short to ground.■
    • Faulty parking brake switch or a poor body ground of the parking brake switch.■
    • Repair an open in the RED wire.■
    1. Check for continuity between the immobilizer control unit-receiver 7P connector No. 2 terminal and ECM connector A (31P) No. 27 terminal.
    Is there continuity end to end with no continuity to ground?
    YES -Go to Step 8 .
    NO -Repair an open or short in the WHT wire.■
    1. Connect the immobilizer control unit-receiver 7P connector No. 5 terminal to body ground with a jumper wire, then turn the ignition switch ON (II).
    Does the immobilizer indicator come on?
    YES -Go to Step 9 .
    NO -Check for these problems:
    • An open in the wire between the gauge control module and immobilizer control unit-receiver.■
    • A faulty immobilizer indicator.■
    • A blown No. 21 (7.5 A) fuse in the under-dash fuse/relay box.■
    1. Check for voltage between the immobilizer control unit-receiver 7P connector No. 6 terminal and body ground with the ignition switch ON (II).
    Is there battery voltage?
    YES -Go to Step 10 .
    NO -Check for these problems:
    • A blown No. 19 (15 A) fuse in the under-dash fuse/relay box.■
    • An open in the wire.■
    1. Check for continuity between the immobilizer control unit-receiver 7P connector No. 1 terminal and body ground.
    Is there continuity?
    YES -Replace the immobilizer control unit-receiver. After replacing the immobilizer control unit-receiver, rewrite the unit with the HDS.■
    NO -Repair an open in the wire or poor ground (G101).■
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    B
    A

    Wire side of female terminals

    upload_2018-2-6_15-41-33.
    - - - Updated - - -
    plug.
     
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  10. rich_jc Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Richard Suffolk
    22
    Thanks, I will go through this and rule out the issues listed. Due to the nature of the fault however (only when warm after a few stops/starts) I still suspect a cracked solder joint somewhere in the system.

    Regards

    Rich
     
  11. rich_jc Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Richard Suffolk
    22
    Ok, I can't follow that flow chart. It refers to a step 10, but I can only see 7 steps. Is there more to this guide?

    Rich
     
  12. Smokingman Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    United Kingdom John LN5
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    I'd been inclined to agree with you on that, but finding it!! Sorry for missing a bit chart updated.
     
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  13. rich_jc Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Richard Suffolk
    22
    Update, I managed to pull a fault code when the car wasn't starting, and got P0602 which appears to be PCM programming related.

    Am hoping my ECU isn't nackered, and that this is just a corrupted software issue. The fact the car still starts and runs most of the time gives me hope.

    I will have to get it in to a main dealer and see if a PCM flash or reprogram will sort the issue.

    Regards

    Rich
    - - - Updated - - -
    I guess one more thing I could try, is there an easy way to perform a 'hard reset' of the ECU? I have done this on fords which basically just involves unplugging all the connectors from the fuse box.

    Regards

    Rich
     
  14. Smokingman Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    United Kingdom John LN5
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    @rich_jc

    just a quick google and i cam across this:
    Causes

    Possible causes for this code include:
    • PCM programming error unlikely
    • New or incorrect PCM unlikely
    • Aftermarket (high-performance) PCM program installed unlikely
    • Blown ECM/PCM fuse
    • Bad ECM/PCM power supply relay
    • A defective ECM/PCM possible
    • Open or shorted wiring or connectors in the CAN harness
    • Insecure control module ground strap or broken ground wire
    Diagnostic and Repair Procedures

    Diagnosing a code P0602 can be challenging, even to the most experienced and well equipped technician. Nevertheless, there are a few preliminary tests that can be performed before throwing your hands in the air and passing the problem off to someone else.
    As usual, I would begin my diagnosis with a visual inspection of engine management wiring harnesses and connectors. Any wiring and connectors that have been damaged or burned should be repaired or replaced. Next, I would connect the scanner to the vehicle diagnostic connector and retrieve all stored codes and freeze frame data. Before clearing the codes, I would write them down just in case this proves to be an intermittent code. A code P0602 must be diagnosed and repaired before diagnosing and repairing any other stored codes, as other stored codes are likely to be false. Now clear the codes in the hope that the P0602 has been stored in error.
    If the P0602 is immediately reset, check for battery voltage to the PCM. The PCM requires battery voltage to function properly. If the battery terminals are corroded or loose, there may be inadequate voltage reaching the PCM. Check PCM relays and fuses for battery voltage with the circuit loaded. Corroded fuses may appear normal until a load is applied to the circuit and their deficiency is revealed.
    Obviously, if the PCM has been recently replaced, the likelihood that it was improperly programmed or not programmed at all is great. Also, a controller from another vehicle cannot be used unless it has been reprogrammed specifically for the vehicle in question and aftermarket (high-performance) programmers may not be recognized by other controllers (especially at first), causing a P0602 to be stored.
    Incorrectly programmed or replaced controllers may be reprogrammed with a factory scanner. If you cannot gain access to such a scanner, most dealerships offer PCM programming for a nominal fee. Some aftermarket PCM manufacturers offer preprogrammed controllers for certain models. Check your auto parts supplier and have the vehicle identification number, mileage, and other pertinent data available.
    Additional diagnostic notes:
    • New or used, a replacement PCM will need to be programmed to match the vehicle in question
    • Aftermarket or high-performance programmers will frequently require time for other controllers to recognize them - if they ever do

    Rich i would check the following:-battery voltage, all earth cables relating to the ECU, security of ECU. Nothing worse that an intermittent problem.
     
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  15. rich_jc Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Richard Suffolk
    22
    Thanks SM, I've managed to locate the ECU which is under the glove box behind the easily removed NS kick panel. I've removed and refitted the two main looms into the ECU just to be sure, and the fault is still present and still very intermittent. I will renew the ECM fuse as I can locate this, I have no idea where any ECU relays are though as can't find this information. The battery posts are clean, as are the cables. A quick test on the battery and all voltages appeared fine.

    I'll post some pictures later as can't find anything online to show the FR-V ECU location.

    Regards

    Rich
     
  16. rich_jc Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Richard Suffolk
    22
    Update, I cannot see any separate earth cables for the ECU so assume it is earthed through the loom. The vehicle starts with the ECU not secured, so I don't believe this is the issue. I cannot see any damaged wires though many are hidden or hard to see.
    - - - Updated - - -
    Further update, removing fuse 7 (FI ECU) replicated the fault almost exactly, although the immobiliser key light did not illuminate or flash at all with it out.

    The fuse blades did look a little brown so I will get another a renew. Old fuse is fitted back and car still starting.
    - - - Updated - - -
    Pic for reference
     

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  17. Smokingman Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    United Kingdom John LN5
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    that looks OK, maybe just clean it up a bit, and then just bend the contacts slightly to enable a better contact.

    cct diag.
     
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  18. rich_jc Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Richard Suffolk
    22
    Thanks, new fuse in, all good so far but I'm not optimistic that was the issue.

    Is that diagram FR-V specific? I can see two main relays for the ECU, but any idea where on the car they would be? These guys in the engine bay perhaps?

    Rich
     

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  19. Smokingman Top Contributor ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

    United Kingdom John LN5
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    It is FR-V specific 2006 diesel. The two relays mentioned in the diagram are indeed in the main fuse box in the engine bay.
     
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  20. rich_jc Junior Member ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom Richard Suffolk
    22
    Ok thanks. This is my main engine bay fuse box. I'll start pulling a few and see if I can replicate the fault.

    It's not the two above, not the grey one or two blue ones in this box. Will try more later and report back.

    Rich