General Poor Ground Clearance / Breakover Angle?

Discussion in '10th Generation (2016)' started by sc489, Tuesday 24th May, 2016.

  1. sc489 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    I note the Philippines brochure states the wheelbase is 2700mm and the ground clearance is only 133mm. This results in a poor calculated breakover angle of only 11.25 degrees (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakover_angle).

    This means the new Civic will be unable to negotiate steep changes in incline e.g. a steep driveway and severe speed bumps will need to be driven over very carefully to avoid damage to the under body. I hope the UK model will have better ground clearance, otherwise UK drivers will need to be careful how they drive the new model.

    In contrast, the current Mazda 3 is a more usable design having the same wheelbase of 2700mm but a having a better ground clearance of 155mm giving a breakover angle of 13.1 degrees.

    I cannot understand the current trend among car designers to keep extending wheelbase or lowering ground clearance (or both) resulting in a very poor breakover angle performance which makes the car design impractical unless you always drive on roads with shallow changes in incline.
     
    Loading...
    tomwillie likes this.
  2. legend-ary Moderator Staff Team

    United Kingdom Legend The Big Smoke
    4,314
    2,766
    6
    Different market have different demands. Suspension tuning is different, suspension components are different. That's the reason UK doesn't get USDM or JDM cars... One being too soft the other being too hard.

    In South Asia the Civic and Corolla etc get much taller suspension and smaller wheels to compensate for bad driving roads so I don't think you can compare any other market's spec with UK ones. Also UK Civic has historically been a unique design to the rest of the world who prefer sedans over hatchbacks.

    Much relevant comparison would be to look at US Civic and its dimensions as their hatchback will be built in Swindon while Coupe and Sedan will be local. Mind you Us cars have longer noses due to NHTSA requirements being different from Euro. Prime example is Honda FiT vs Jazz ...
     
    Loading...
    sc489 likes this.
  3. sc489 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    OK - I might just buy one if the UK model has an acceptable breakover angle.
     
    Loading...
  4. legend-ary Moderator Staff Team

    United Kingdom Legend The Big Smoke
    4,314
    2,766
    6
    Wait and see. :Smile:
     
    Loading...
  5. sc489 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Does anyone know the ground clearance and wheelbase of the new UK 2017 Civic? I looked at Honda's UK site and there is still no information. My post 1 suggests the breakover angle will be very poor and I'll have to rule out the new Civic since it won't handle the steep change in gradient on my drive. My current 7th Generation. Accord has a good breakover angle as does the revamped Mazda 3 Fastback which is my current choice to replace the Accord.
     
    Loading...
  6. legend-ary Moderator Staff Team

    United Kingdom Legend The Big Smoke
    4,314
    2,766
    6
    Judging by the longish nose and larger wheelbase I wouldn't hold high hopes. Maybe worth getting a demo model out for a test drive and having a go.
     
    Loading...
  7. FirstHonda Moderator Staff Team

    United Kingdom Ed Wiltshire
    7,201
    5,114
    @sc489

    I assume (always dangerous!) that the many smaller SUVs on the market now don't have this issue?

    In which case the HR-V or CR-V are perhaps worthy of consideration?
     
    Loading...
    Ichiban likes this.
  8. sc489 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    You are correct that SUVs generally have a better breakover angle, although some are not as good as you may think. I don't really need a SUV and prefer a more 'traditional' saloon styling - hence my Mazda 3 Fastback interest. I'd also prefer to buy a Japanese manufactured car (UK supplied Mazdas are made in Japan) compared to a car like the HR-V made in Mexico.
     
    Loading...
  9. sawf1 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    United Kingdom James Poole
    65
    29
    Going by Specifications | The 2017 Civic | Honda Canada the wheelbase is 2.7m and the ground clearance with no load is 125mm. That gives a breakover angle of 10.6 degrees, so not great. Whats the minimum angle you think would be ok?
     
    Loading...
  10. tomwillie Valued Contributor ★ ★ ★ ☆ ☆

    England Tom Royston
    478
    181
    Ground clearance with driver is stated as only 110mm in brochure given out at UK release view on Tuesday 21 Feb 2017, this less than the 118mm given for my 9th Generation Type-R GT. Wheelbase for 10th Generation Civic is 2697mm.
    Thus breakover angle = only 9.32 deg.
    I have to drive my Civic Type-R GT at an oblique angle over footpath to enter/exit my drive as footpath slope is 1 in 7 cross-fall & road steeply cambered otherwise front splitter grazes the footpath. Living in a close near a hammerhead turn round this is easily done but would be a big problem onto a busy road.
    With my previous 9th Generation Civic SR 1.8iVTEC with 2.6m wheelbase & 140mm ground clearance with driver I could drive directly in/out of my drive.
    New 10th Generation would probably be a problem but no intention of getting one as no magic seats & I prefer higher driving position of 9th Generation Civic.
     
    Last edited: Wednesday 22nd Feb, 2017
    Loading...
  11. tomwillie Valued Contributor ★ ★ ★ ☆ ☆

    England Tom Royston
    478
    181
    Clearance in brochure with driver on board is given as 110mm however when fully loaded this is likely to reduce to less than 100mm. A Honda S2000 unloaded has a clearance of 129.54mm & fully loaded this reduces to 107mm a reduction of 22.54mm. Thus a 10th Generation Civic is likely to reduce by at least this amount ie 110 - 20mm say = 90mm.
    Breakover angle now becomes 7.63 deg which is equivalent to a 1 in 7.46 slope. This is steeper than 1 in 10 slope to short ramps in multi storey car parks at 5.71 deg. Max allowable approach slope may be a bit less than 7.63 deg but 10th Generation Civic should be able to safely negotiate multi storey car parks when fully loaded.
    In UK the maximum legal height for a road hump/sleeping policeman is 100mm so a fully loaded 10th Generation Civic could well ground out on those. However, recommended height for humps/sleeping policemen is 75mm so should be OK.
    Does appear imprudent to produce a car for UK/EU which may not clear speed reduction humps.
     
    Loading...
  12. sc489 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    As the OP, I've now seen the new Civic Brochure. The ground clearance is only 110mm. That's astonishing! The wheelbase is 2697mm so that gives a theoretical breakover angle of only 9.33 degrees which is about the worst of any UK production car. In contrast, my 2006 Accord has a breakover angle of 12.8 degrees. I have a steep change in incline on my driveway and I know the Accord just clears it so I can't buy a car which has a much worse breakover angle. I have just ordered a Mazda 3 Fastback which has a much more sensible breakover angle of 13.1 degrees. Well done Mazda for sensible car design :Smile: and a 0/10 to Honda :Epic Fail: for such a stupid car design decision to lower the new Civic. New owners are going to have exciting times scraping their underbody on speed bumps and steep drives. You have been warned.
     
    Loading...
    SayamaAccord likes this.
  13. legend-ary Moderator Staff Team

    United Kingdom Legend The Big Smoke
    4,314
    2,766
    6
    0/10 For people like you. A lot of us don't have such a requirement and to us the Civic looks like an exciting proposition.
    If Civic was the answer to all questions we would see no other car and if Mazda was such a sensible option every Civic owner would have been driving one.
     
    Loading...
    Ichiban likes this.
  14. sc489 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    I think many people will like the new Civic and buy one without understanding the incredibly poor breakover angle. They will be shocked to hear the scraping from the underbody when they take a speed bump too fast or try to negotiate a steep change in incline.
     
    Loading...
  15. legend-ary Moderator Staff Team

    United Kingdom Legend The Big Smoke
    4,314
    2,766
    6
    Strangely I have bottomed out a friend's 8th Generation on larger bumps even when taken at 20ish mph.
     
    Loading...
  16. Beefy Club Veteran ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

    United Kingdom Stoke
    1,330
    944
    1
    It's something most people check as part of a test drive. If they like the car enough they will take steps to allow them to own the car enough. Most people don't judge a car on break over angle alone ( just saying ) this car is rediculous because of its break over angle! If it's so important why don't the motoring press include it in all there reviews? I have a steep drive while my tourer scrapes the towing eye slightly. It's not the car I blame but my drive because it's..........well...............steep?
     
    Loading...
    FirstHonda likes this.
  17. FirstHonda Moderator Staff Team

    United Kingdom Ed Wiltshire
    7,201
    5,114
    I think this is the point. If you have a steep driveway, this element is important. If not, then it isn't.

    It's a bit like needing to fit a set of golf clubs into the boot. If you play golf, it's a must. If not, you don't think about it - but you wouldn't dismiss every car as hopeless because of it.

    My MINI has terrible ground clearance, and will ground over speed humps if you aren't very careful. That doesn't appear to have stopped it being a sales success that Honda and Mazda could only dream of...

    The Mazda fits what @sc489 specifically needs. The fact that there were so few suitable choices (excepting SUVs) shows me what a niche requirement this is. However, to the customer in that niche, it becomes a show-stopper.

    My current niche is that I won't have diesel, need 4WD but also need automatic. That isn't something that most manufacturers offer, as the 4WD / auto combination only comes with diesel power. The Mazda CX-5 is therefore a 0/10 for me, with the CR-V 10/10. It doesn't make the Mazda a bad car, it just makes it an unsuitable car for my needs.
     
    Loading...
    legend-ary likes this.
  18. Perhaps we all need to take a step back, including me who liked one of the comments, so we're not 'blaming' either cars or drives! I'm grateful to the OP because this issue had never occurred to me - but now I might end up taking a tape measure to work before I replace my car to measure the speed bumps in the car park !
     
    AndyB1976 and sc489 like this.
  19. sc489 Club Member ★ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

    Exactly. I fear many people will buy the new Civic without spotting the very low ground clearance in the brochure and suffer the consequences.
     
    Loading...
  20. FirstHonda Moderator Staff Team

    United Kingdom Ed Wiltshire
    7,201
    5,114
    Indeed. This happened when I got my Ferrari. It's a bugger...:lol:
     
    Loading...